Toyota's season.

Mr V · 16 Oct 2005, 19:01 (Ref:1435365)

Just how much did USA really cost them? Ferrari scored 18 points there, Toyota finished 4th in the WCC, only 12 points behind Ferrari.

My question though, although they finished 4th, should they be satisfied with their season given the budget they have, especially when you consider that their "arch enemies" Honda (and BAR) finished 2nd in the WCC, with more points and a lower budget in 2004.

Also, with their switch to Bridgestone for '06, what can they be expecting for next season?

Kicking-back · 16 Oct 2005, 19:04 (Ref:1435371)

They've made good progress - several podiums and a couple of (lucky) poles - which they've not had before.

I think they'll continue the upward curve.

Steady she goes, as they say.

Bridgestone could be a smart move, or not.

Dani Filth · 16 Oct 2005, 20:32 (Ref:1435476)

they are higher that i expected .. and Ralf finally proved that he deserves to be in F1
next year . it will depend on Bridgestone . if Bridgestone are competitive . they will continue to grow .. if not .. they will remain 4th-5th

Dutton · 16 Oct 2005, 20:38 (Ref:1435483)

Toyota are progressing along an expected performance path imho.

Btw, KB, if it was steady as they go, would they not stay at the same performance level as opposed to improving?

BootsOntheSide · 16 Oct 2005, 20:48 (Ref:1435497)

The Bridgestone switch may have been influenced by commercial matters, but it does make sense to work with them in developing the tyres rather than dealing with whatever McLaren and Renault want, and the extra development support should ensure that Mciahelin don't have a big advantage again.

Considering how far form the pace the team has been up until now, 4th represents a big improvement, but they've still spent a lot of money for relatively little reward. The two poles weren't so much fluke as fake - completely hollow from a racing perspective. The boardroom guys will be expecting a win next year, and they could get it.

Jordi · 16 Oct 2005, 20:50 (Ref:1435499)

Toyota's had a fine season, but race wins are to be expected next year.

By the way, Ralf ended up finishing ahead of Trulli in the standings, did anyone else think that Jarno's performance dropped quite a bit towards the end of the year?

Menelaos · 16 Oct 2005, 21:01 (Ref:1435508)

Toyota did very well this year. Although I expected more after the first races, I have to add. Indy cost them a lot, they'd probably grab a total of 6-8 points there, and Ferrari would have normally lost at least 10 of their 18 points. So thumbs up for Michelin for screwing Toyota and JPM, they'd probably be better off now if not for Indy's stupid mistake.

Hugh Jarce · 16 Oct 2005, 21:06 (Ref:1435514)

I think they have made colossal progress compared to others. I know they have much money to throw at F1, but history proves that is not enough.

To leap to 4th and probably 3rd without the Indy fiasco is significant and whilst it is a team effort, it appears Mr G has much to do with it.

Gerben24 · 17 Oct 2005, 07:37 (Ref:1435731)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordi

By the way, Ralf ended up finishing ahead of Trulli in the standings, did anyone else think that Jarno's performance dropped quite a bit towards the end of the year?

Maybe, this has something to do with the updated Toyota (with the new front suspension). It seems Ralf likes this car a lot, while Jarno doesn't.

Ralfs qualifying improved with the new car while Jarno's became worse...

BootsOntheSide · 17 Oct 2005, 11:08 (Ref:1435856)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menelaos

Toyota did very well this year. Although I expected more after the first races, I have to add. Indy cost them a lot, they'd probably grab a total of 6-8 points there, and Ferrari would have normally lost at least 10 of their 18 points. So thumbs up for Michelin for screwing Toyota and JPM, they'd probably be better off now if not for Indy's stupid mistake.

If Michelin hadn't produced tyres which were superior to Bridgestone's at 16 or more races out of 19, Michael and Ferrari would have easily outscored Toyota and JPM. Even if you ignore Indy, Ferrari managed 4 podiums on inferior tyres, could Toyota have done that?

Halsey · 17 Oct 2005, 12:14 (Ref:1435919)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

If Michelin hadn't produced tyres which were superior to Bridgestone's at 16 or more races out of 19, Michael and Ferrari would have easily outscored Toyota and JPM. Even if you ignore Indy, Ferrari managed 4 podiums on inferior tyres, could Toyota have done that?

Some of the blame could probably fall upon Ferrari - the car just wasn't as good as some of the others this season... And with bridgestones the package became worse.

I'll also throw in the question regarding the drivers - whether Rubens & Michael, given the car they had, performed consistantly better than Ralf and Jarno?

Isn't speculation a wonderful thing? Because I'm not too happy with the last question of mine, I'll sort of rephrase it and say do you think Rubens & Michael would've scored more points than Ralf & Jarno had they driven for Toyota this season?

Gt_R · 17 Oct 2005, 12:47 (Ref:1435958)

I think that Toyota should have performed better than they did. Given their huge budget, and that the TF105B they raced in China is effectively the THIRD design they have for the new regulations in 05, you'd thought they have a jump ahead of everyone in exploiting the rules. But still, the performance leap isn't huge enough.

Both Ferrari drivers, especially Michael, have extracted more from the Ferrari than other drivers possibly can. Although their cars are not the leading chassis and design, taking away a tyre difference and i believe Ferrari would have little difficulty getting third compared to the hard fight they faced.

Menelaos · 17 Oct 2005, 13:00 (Ref:1435964)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

If Michelin hadn't produced tyres which were superior to Bridgestone's at 16 or more races out of 19, Michael and Ferrari would have easily outscored Toyota and JPM. Even if you ignore Indy, Ferrari managed 4 podiums on inferior tyres, could Toyota have done that?

Yeah, that talk goes on and on doesnt it?

I agree, Boots, but that was not a question of inferior tyres by Michelin. They did much worse than that. They could have at least built some tyres able to make it through the race.

Menelaos · 17 Oct 2005, 13:02 (Ref:1435967)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halsey

do you think Rubens & Michael would've scored more points than Ralf & Jarno had they driven for Toyota this season?

MS yes. RB: NO WAY.

**John Turner** · 17 Oct 2005, 14:14 (Ref:1436014)

Well, on this one, I disagree with Gt_R. I think Toyota raised their game to another level this year, and at this stage in their development, the acquisition of experience in running the team is as important as the money pumped in. This is also why I would be reluctant to compare, as Mr V has done, their performance last year with BAR, a team with a few more seasons under their belt. In any event, this year, they have certainly beaten Honda, haven't they?

N I Tram · 17 Oct 2005, 14:51 (Ref:1436054)

Mike Gascoyne's first Toyota design is clearly their best car yet, and Ralf and Jarno are arguably the two fastest drivers they've ever ran. Before the season I felt that a top 5 finish was inevitable, and they've done the job well, aided by Williams and BAR each having long spells of uncompetitiveness - it could be that the loss of Heidfeld for the last few races was all that saved them from losing 4th to Williams.

On the question of the comparison with Ferrari I agree with Menelaos. Michael really seemed to stretch the Ferrari, and excelled in Hungary and Imola especially, while Rubens was nowhere.

Knowlesy · 18 Oct 2005, 20:40 (Ref:1437326)

Toyota are young and have made a huge leap compared to their previous short F1 history.

Mainly thanks to Gascoyne's re-organisation of the design team and some pretty good drivers.

My feeling is that the Bridgestone switch will hinder their progress slightly. Mike was not happy about the Bridgestone switch and was not consulted, according to reports at the time.

I disagree Gt_R. You talk of how Toyota should have achieved more with their budget. Perhaps. But where were, say, Ferrari between 1979 and 2000? It is not that simple.

Dutton · 18 Oct 2005, 20:57 (Ref:1437343)

The amount of money available is what can make the difference in ultimate potential; but, it is the quality of your staff/management that determines how much potential is realised.

**John Turner** · 18 Oct 2005, 21:25 (Ref:1437363)

Words of great wisdom, Dutton!

bumpsteer · 18 Oct 2005, 23:34 (Ref:1437439)

I think that Toyota should improve another big step in 2006. it will be the second year of Mike G's technical input and this will be significant.

But, the thing that I'm so hacked off about Toyota is the complete cockup the management is making. With the amount of money available to them I cannot see why they don't get better drivers than they have. I like Trulli but he isn't really the real deal. And Ralf is never going to be a World Champion. Toyota really need a change of policy if they want to win something. I feel they need a 'name' in the mould of a Flav or a Ron to dictate the strategy.

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