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Old 27 Jan 2011, 07:58 (Ref:2821213)   #1
jsvahn
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Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974 (Group 2 !!)

Im seeking for information about front and rear suspension on a racing Escort Mk1.

What was used in 1974 in Group 2 on Zakspeed cars and even earlier Broadspeed cars?

Front: what kind of uprights?
Rear: Coilover or torsion suspension?

Photos would help a lot ! Photos can be sent to johan(AT)johansvahn.com


Front upright used on Group 5 Escorts, but were they used on a GR2 Mk1 in 1974?


All help is welcomed!
Johan
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Old 27 Jan 2011, 08:37 (Ref:2821235)   #2
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On the rear turreted 5 link with coilovers were de rigor in that period surely, never heard of torsion bars being used.
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Old 31 Jan 2011, 18:53 (Ref:2823396)   #3
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Originally Posted by jsvahn View Post
Im seeking for information about front and rear suspension on a racing Escort Mk1.

What was used in 1974 in Group 2 on Zakspeed cars and even earlier Broadspeed cars?

Front: what kind of uprights?
Rear: Coilover or torsion suspension?

Photos would help a lot ! Photos can be sent to johan(AT)johansvahn.com
Front upright used on Group 5 Escorts, but were they used on a GR2 Mk1 in 1974?


All help is welcomed!
Johan
Hi Johan

I have pics of that upright on a Zak Gp5 Mk2 but also something similar (black & white photo) that is labelled as 'Mk1' but cannot confirm if that is correct or not. It also has compression strut and engine mount on chassis. Not sure (without re-reading) if App J allowed different upright but will check. There is no arb in pic (no engine either!) but a bracket on tca for it to locate to. Another black & white pic of rear end shows inboard coilovers, 4 short links and watts- but no dummy leaf springs which is odd unless photo taken out of period. There is also an arb clamped to the lower links which I believe is correct.

I also have several photos of an ex Broadspeed car torsion bar rear suspension. (Yes Al, it was tried for packaging reasons!) I don't think anyone apart from Ford and Broadspeed used this setup.

PM me if you want any photos.

Mike
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Old 31 Jan 2011, 21:00 (Ref:2823466)   #4
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Blimey thats interesting about the torsion bar suspension, can't have done them much good!
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 05:43 (Ref:2823622)   #5
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Originally Posted by Al Weyman View Post
Blimey thats interesting about the torsion bar suspension, can't have done them much good!
It was all about trying to squeeze biggest wheels and tyres possible between extended arches and chassis rail. The former could only be certain amount wider than standard body and chassis could not be removed. Ralph Broad was always thinking outside the box, not always gaining an advantage but certainly trying! BTW the torsion bars themselves reputably came off a Moggy 1000 or Marina. Although have only seen a genuine Zakspeed Mk1 well out of period (so don't know if original or not) it had coilovers mounted inboard of chassis rails and coming through boot floor. That car also had 'A' frame top links (as original Lotus Cortina but above diff)- with rubber handbrake gaiters where they went though floor- and no watts or panhard. Again, this could have been done out of period as have not seen any other evidence to suggest Zak used it.

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Old 1 Feb 2011, 11:40 (Ref:2823776)   #6
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Escort torsion bar rear suspension

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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
It was all about trying to squeeze biggest wheels and tyres possible between extended arches and chassis rail. The former could only be certain amount wider than standard body and chassis could not be removed. Ralph Broad was always thinking outside the box, not always gaining an advantage but certainly trying! BTW the torsion bars themselves reputably came off a Moggy 1000 or Marina. Although have only seen a genuine Zakspeed Mk1 well out of period (so don't know if original or not) it had coilovers mounted inboard of chassis rails and coming through boot floor. That car also had 'A' frame top links (as original Lotus Cortina but above diff)- with rubber handbrake gaiters where they went though floor- and no watts or panhard. Again, this could have been done out of period as have not seen any other evidence to suggest Zak used it.

Aha! I remember torsion bar suspension on Escorts. In the early 1970's I worked for Wooding in Hamburg. Amongst other activities we ran a Mk1 Escort in touring car races in Europe. Over the winter of, I think it was 1971 but could have been 72, we built 2 new cars for the following year. The body shells were prepared by Maurice Gomm of Woking. We actually built 3 cars; one was for a custimer, Jorg Obermoser. These cars did indeed have crossed-over torsion bars for the rear suspension. They were 1300 Marina bars and we had various thickness ones machined down to give different spring rates. The torsion bar set up was indeed employed so that the widest possible rear wheels could be accommodated. The rules said that the original springs must still be in the same location but the size/material was free. Additional springs could also be employed so this set up did indeed comply with the rules. The "existing" springs were made of Teflon and were not attached to the axle, they were just there for show.
The cars were completed over the winter and testing carried out in the spring. The cars were excellent and everything was ready for the new season, cars, wheels, tyres, spares, big black Mercedes transporter.... everything. Unfortunately Wooding then went bust and the whole shooting match was purchased by a German guy who used to run a 1300cc Escort.... one Eric Zakovski (spellin?) i.e. Zakspeed. The rest is history!!
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 12:17 (Ref:2823795)   #7
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Originally Posted by Gungebucket View Post
Aha! I remember torsion bar suspension on Escorts. In the early 1970's I worked for Wooding in Hamburg. Amongst other activities we ran a Mk1 Escort in touring car races in Europe. Over the winter of, I think it was 1971 but could have been 72, we built 2 new cars for the following year. The body shells were prepared by Maurice Gomm of Woking. We actually built 3 cars; one was for a custimer, Jorg Obermoser. These cars did indeed have crossed-over torsion bars for the rear suspension. They were 1300 Marina bars and we had various thickness ones machined down to give different spring rates. The torsion bar set up was indeed employed so that the widest possible rear wheels could be accommodated. The rules said that the original springs must still be in the same location but the size/material was free. Additional springs could also be employed so this set up did indeed comply with the rules. The "existing" springs were made of Teflon and were not attached to the axle, they were just there for show.
The cars were completed over the winter and testing carried out in the spring. The cars were excellent and everything was ready for the new season, cars, wheels, tyres, spares, big black Mercedes transporter.... everything. Unfortunately Wooding then went bust and the whole shooting match was purchased by a German guy who used to run a 1300cc Escort.... one Eric Zakovski (spellin?) i.e. Zakspeed. The rest is history!!
Hi Gunge, good to hear from someone who was there at the time! This could be one of those cars- it is a Gomm shell and still about. (Not mine, unfortunately!)

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Old 1 Feb 2011, 13:34 (Ref:2823850)   #8
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This should be the finnish car ex. Matti J. Kemilšinen.
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 13:41 (Ref:2823862)   #9
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Originally Posted by Gungebucket View Post
Aha! I remember torsion bar suspension on Escorts. In the early 1970's I worked for Wooding in Hamburg. Amongst other activities we ran a Mk1 Escort in touring car races in Europe. Over the winter of, I think it was 1971 but could have been 72, we built 2 new cars for the following year. The body shells were prepared by Maurice Gomm of Woking. We actually built 3 cars; one was for a custimer, Jorg Obermoser. These cars did indeed have crossed-over torsion bars for the rear suspension. They were 1300 Marina bars and we had various thickness ones machined down to give different spring rates. The torsion bar set up was indeed employed so that the widest possible rear wheels could be accommodated. The rules said that the original springs must still be in the same location but the size/material was free. Additional springs could also be employed so this set up did indeed comply with the rules. The "existing" springs were made of Teflon and were not attached to the axle, they were just there for show.
The cars were completed over the winter and testing carried out in the spring. The cars were excellent and everything was ready for the new season, cars, wheels, tyres, spares, big black Mercedes transporter.... everything. Unfortunately Wooding then went bust and the whole shooting match was purchased by a German guy who used to run a 1300cc Escort.... one Eric Zakovski (spellin?) i.e. Zakspeed. The rest is history!!
Great story!! Thank you.
Remember anything about the front suspension? What kind of uprights were used?
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 13:57 (Ref:2823887)   #10
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Agreed good tale but what erks me is how on earth they arrive at a set of regs where you can fit a teflon spring in thats unattached that does nothing and is legal. FFS just say the car has to sit on that spring and it has to be fully functional with no other springing media used. It just encouraged cheating and runaway success for some and a very unlevel playing field, never get my head around this.
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 14:07 (Ref:2823901)   #11
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Very interesting thread.

But, how does swapping the origional spring for a pseudo spring in the same mounts allow you to use wider tyres??

Al, its called development,if people didn't do it we,d all still be getting about on horse and cart.
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 17:38 (Ref:2824023)   #12
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Very interesting thread.

But, how does swapping the origional spring for a pseudo spring in the same mounts allow you to use wider tyres??

Al, its called development,if people didn't do it we,d all still be getting about on horse and cart.
Robyn, the leaf spring wasn't the problem, it was the outboard turrets Ford and others preferred because it placed the dampers as far apart as possible. Max wheel you can fit in that setup is 10". OK for rallying but for racing moving turrets inboard or using torsion bars allowed wider than that.

Al, leaf springs are heavy and don't allow simple rate changes. Rules said additional springs allowed as long as original type retained also. So make lightweight version of leafspring that doesn't affect rate and fit coils or torsion bars as well. Don't think Ford were doing anything others didn't do also........

Johan, sorry we havn't answered your questions as to what Zak used in 1974. Gungebucket may know more but there always seems to be great difficulty in finding info about the team and their cars. You need someone who was working for Mr Zakowski at the time. Good luck.

(Yes the pic is of the Finnish car.)
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 18:44 (Ref:2824062)   #13
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For waht I know, Zakspeed never used torsion bars (as said, Wooding did) but used coil springs (and retained a thin leaf spring). How they managed to stuff 13,5" rear wheels inside is a mystery to me...
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 19:05 (Ref:2824091)   #14
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For waht I know, Zakspeed never used torsion bars (as said, Wooding did) but used coil springs (and retained a thin leaf spring). How they managed to stuff 13,5" rear wheels inside is a mystery to me...
Yes, would love to have been able to compare the inner arch and chassis of a Zak car with standard Escort. Even with large tubs and inboard turrets I reckon 12" max.........
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Old 1 Feb 2011, 20:06 (Ref:2824134)   #15
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So whats wrong with using fibreglass leaf springs I fail to see why the rule writers at the time allowed another spring to be used thats all I am saying.
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