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Old 8 Jan 2021, 00:03 (Ref:4027550)   #1
bathurst77
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Customer Cars?

With the increasing difficulties for a new team starting or getting into F1, maybe its time to go back to customer cars or used cars for new teams.

Merc etc could sell its 2020 chassis to new start up to use in 2021 or manufacture a number of chassis for customers to run with whatever engine they can get a deal on or make themselves.

This would be a cheaper way in for new teams, if they could buy someone elses chassis, give existing teams an additional income stream and a market for their used chassis. You would also see red bull car with merc engine, ferrari chassis with renault engine etc.

Optionally a company like Lola, Dallara or someone just making chassis for 3rd parties and not ever entering themselves.

Maybe a 2 - 3 year limit. Only allow a new team to use customer chassis for 1st 2 or 3 years, then start making their own or get out.

After all there are some who say Haas and Racing point are pretty close to doing this quietly anyhow
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 00:25 (Ref:4027553)   #2
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It's a slippery slope that F1 is really wary of. Before you know it, F1 can wind up like IndyCar. History shows that it's a one way trip that I don't think any series has ever come back from.

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After all there are some who say Haas and Racing point are pretty close to doing this quietly anyhow
That's just not factual. It's not even true for Alpha Tauri anymore, although was true at some point in the past.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 01:03 (Ref:4027554)   #3
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It's a slippery slope that F1 is really wary of. Before you know it, F1 can wind up like IndyCar. History shows that it's a one way trip that I don't think any series has ever come back from.
Worked well in 50s - 70s and a 3 year limit would mean teams can start racing now while they build up their design team and factory. If after 3 years youre not ready to build your own, you have to go to another category of racing.

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That's just not factual. It's not even true for Alpha Tauri anymore, although was true at some point in the past.
"there are some who say..."

Last edited by bathurst77; 8 Jan 2021 at 01:13.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 01:10 (Ref:4027556)   #4
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Also a team could buy a customer/used car and change the aero or anything on it.. maybe the williams would be faster if the front wing or something was changed..
Would be embarrassing if your last year or customer car was beating your actual team car.

Of course if youre not building your own car, you cant earn points in the constructors championship (so they wouldnt get as much money each season).... Which again gives teams incentive to move away from the customer car to being constructors and enter that championship.
Or does the chassis builder get any points you score?
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 01:07 (Ref:4027555)   #5
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That's just not factual.
Blummin’ ‘eck do we have to be so argumentative about everything round here. Let’s take what someone posts and run with it rather have to find a bit that we can pronounce is wrong.

There are some who consider Haas and Racing Point as getting too close to customer teams as it is. Note the number of “pink Mercedes” comments. I agree that they still put a lot of work into the design themselves, but you can see what is being getting at.

Now if you think this is too far it might be of interest.

Personally I would try and keep the individual teams as constructors. I find that of interest, but customer cars do have some benefits.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 04:31 (Ref:4027572)   #6
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Blummin’ ‘eck do we have to be so argumentative about everything round here. Let’s take what someone posts and run with it rather have to find a bit that we can pronounce is wrong.

There are some who consider Haas and Racing Point as getting too close to customer teams as it is. Note the number of “pink Mercedes” comments. I agree that they still put a lot of work into the design themselves, but you can see what is being getting at.
I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. There are some who consider Earth is flat and a COVID19 vaccine contains a microchip with Boss Metal Zone scheme in it. Why not run with that then? Why not just make stuff up as we go along and use these "alternative facts" as arguments. That'll really improve the discussions around here.
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Worked well in 50s - 70s and a 3 year limit would mean teams can start racing now while they build up their design team and factory. If after 3 years youre not ready to build your own, you have to go to another category of racing.
If I recall correctly, something similar was actually considered during the final years of Max Mosley's term at FIA. Just before Caterham et al entered F1.
That could be a solution. But it seems most current teams are against even something like this right now. Every time you make a big change like that in favour of potential entrants, existing entrants feel threatened.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 12:48 (Ref:4027642)   #7
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I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. There are some who consider Earth is flat and a COVID19 vaccine contains a microchip with Boss Metal Zone scheme in it. Why not run with that then? Why not just make stuff up as we go along and use these "alternative facts" as arguments. That'll really improve the discussions around here..
This is such a ridiculous argument. Try thinking about this and the differences. Start by considering the words fact, opinion and subjective and how they differ.
(Purposely using your type of language here).

Read what people say and get their meaning rather than being so dismissive. You can be dismissive if someone claims the earth is flat. They didn’t here.

We’re done with this now. Think about it.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 01:16 (Ref:4027558)   #8
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From
https://wtf1.com/post/6-years-where-...e-works-teams/

customer cars weren’t officially banned in F1 until 2010, though teams never really made use of the practice. It made a bit of a comeback in the late-2000s when Super Aguri ran old Honda chassis, and when Red Bull used the same cars for both of its teams, Red Bull Racing and Toro Rosso.

In 2008, Toro Rosso didn’t get its new car until the Monaco Grand Prix but when it did, Red Bull Racing was in for a bit of an embarrassment. Dubbed the STR3, the Adrian Newey-designed chassis was basically identical to Red Bull’s RB4, the only difference being the Ferrari engine and gearbox in the back, compared to the Renault which powered the Red Bull.

Despite the smaller budget and lack of updates compared to Red Bull, the engine gave Toro Rosso a bit of an advantage – well, that and the fact it had a young Sebastian Vettel as a driver. He became a regular points scorer and took that brilliant victory at a soaking wet Monza, and by the end of the year Toro Rosso had scored 39 points – 10 more than it’s sister – and supposedly ‘main’ – team.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 02:06 (Ref:4027565)   #9
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The constructors championship should be done away with as it distorts everything and makes F1 an engineering championship and not a drivers one which it should be. Getting rid of the constructors championship and making it viable to new entrants to use a customer car is the one thing that would raise interest and introduce new blood into the sport but it won't happen.

The constructor teams would then benefit from being able to sell on their previous year cars and at least get some money back. BTW it was introduced in 1958 which surprises me as I thought it was a Bernie invention. Just because it has been in place for that long does not mean changes could be made for customer cars, preferably its removal. No new teams will be added now anyway due to the lockout fee that has been introduced to artificially guarantee the teams have a value and can't just disappear without someone getting money in their hand.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 02:10 (Ref:4027566)   #10
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BTW it was introduced in 1958 which surprises me as I thought it was a Bernie invention.
Go Vanwall
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 04:09 (Ref:4027571)   #11
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The constructors championship should be done away with as it distorts everything and makes F1 an engineering championship and not a drivers one which it should be.
Ha! Says who? Do you want to maybe reverse the direction of Indy 500 oval or introduce groin kicks to Olympic boxing while you're at it?

Bernie invention?! Officially or not the formula was a competition of constructors who tried to hire the best drivers, among other personnel, since well before the World Championship began, well before Bernard Ecclestone was even conceived! And the roots of it reach back to first ever motor race. It's all (well, most) of the other major types of racing that changed from a constructor competition to a competition of drivers in equal machinery.

Honestly, I suggest seeking out a brilliant documentary series called Victory By Design presented by Alain de Cadenet, who himself is a former racing driver and constructor. It's about the different car makes and their efforts in racing. First of all it's porn, if you like cars, since he actually drives all of the legendary cars he's talking about. And secondly, it'll give you a whole new appreciation for racing history, since it's not grainy black and white silent footage, but fire-breathing machines filmed in full colour with HD audio.

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Old 8 Jan 2021, 05:44 (Ref:4027575)   #12
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Ha! Says who?
Says me.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 07:27 (Ref:4027584)   #13
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Says me.
Well, I say you can switch your attention to almost any other racing series out there, and leave the last surviving high-level constructor-based circuit racing series with no BoP for those of us who still appreciate that.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 07:28 (Ref:4027585)   #14
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Customer cars must be 1 year old minimum snd compete for a Class B championship.

If on the odd ocassion one gets in the mix at the front they can score drivers points but not constructors.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 08:00 (Ref:4027586)   #15
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Just throwing my bit into the ring here.
I see the advantages of allowing customer cars for new teams (or cars based on something that has been raced before) and also agree with the three years limit. But, I also think the the teams should be allowed to score constructors points, but why not make that half points? That will reward the teams who can develop/improve the cars (showing that they will be capable of being a contender when they have to produce their own chassis), and give them an improved income at the end of the season.
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