A1GP car performance

[RichardRenes]

There may be another factor: new tarmac!!!!

Jeroen Bleekemolen said that there simply wasn't as much grip as expected.

[SALEEN S7R]

As I am sure you are able to appricate Asp many of us fans like different elements to the sport than others. This thread, before the title was changed, was discussing exactly what I was talking about, the A1 GP cars performance in relation to its main series competition.

Yes I like to see good close racing that is entertaining, that is of course one of the big draws for many of us. What I also like to see however is cars that are fast, and to make comparissans to other series which are at a similar sort of level that also happen to race on the same circuits to see just how fast one car is compared to another.

So in answer to your question, all the talk about times is because it is directly relevent to the topic in question. Qualifying has just taken place and it is the start of a new season with a new car and it is only natural that people will want to discuss the cars performance relative to the previous car and others that race at the same venue. And yes whilst I understand that not everybody may share my enthusiasim regarding car performance and lap times it does seem that a lot of the contributors to this thread do. If anyone here actually does really start to talk about what actually happened during qualifying then I will be more than happy to join in.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by RichardRenes

There may be another factor: new tarmac!!!!

Jeroen Bleekemolen said that there simply wasn't as much grip as expected.

Track re surfacing would obviously make a slight differnce, still doesent explain how the cars are 3.0 seconds off of a GP2 Asia car and 3.4 seconds off of a Formula Nippon car though does it? Track re surfacing may make 1 or 2 seconds differnce yes but I would have thought it unlikely to make that much more of a differnce.

[Mak]

ASP, I agree with you as this is a drivers championship and outright times are not significant. It is unfortunate that a lot of people have been exagerating the new cars performance when it makes very little difference if all have the same and it exciting racing and the best driver wins.I think the cars look good and are top Quality machines. The average spectator cannot tell if one car is a couple of seconds faster or slower without a stopwatch! I am sure there is probably another 0.5 to 1 sec left in developing an ideal setup for what its worth.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Mak

ASP, I agree with you as this is a drivers championship and outright times are not significant. It is unfortunate that a lot of people have been exagerating the new cars performance when it makes very little difference if all have the same and it exciting racing and the best driver wins.I think the cars look good and are top Quality machines. The average spectator cannot tell if one car is a couple of seconds faster or slower without a stopwatch! I am sure there is probably another 0.5 to 1 sec left in developing an ideal setup for what its worth.

Seconded. It's the racing and the spectacle that count.

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by Mak

ASP, I agree with you as this is a drivers championship and outright times are not significant. It is unfortunate that a lot of people have been exagerating the new cars performance when it makes very little difference if all have the same and it exciting racing and the best driver wins.I think the cars look good and are top Quality machines. The average spectator cannot tell if one car is a couple of seconds faster or slower without a stopwatch! I am sure there is probably another 0.5 to 1 sec left in developing an ideal setup for what its worth.

Well, hang on a minute. For many people, the intrigue and interest in the performance of the cars is very much part of the spectacle.
I would only be half as interested without this kind of discussion.

As someone whose earliest recollections of 'racing' centre mostly around the physical and sensory awe of vehicles at speed - the power, the driver working at the wheel, the sound echoing off the trees and the ground reverberating under your feet - the actual sporting spectacle, for me and I suspect many others, is actually relatively tame and uninteresting by comparison.

There's no reason why the physical capabilities of the car, the lap times they can achieve and other technical details can't be considered a substantial, if not the greater element of the sport by some people.

Really, the issue here is that the need to discuss both the car's performance, and the weekend at hand are conflicting with one another. Perhaps a moderator will consider splitting the thread, or allowing another to be started for one or the other topic?

[Kiwi3]

Sorry perhaps I should have kept the car performance thread separate.

For me I hope the A1GP car will be as quick as GP2 in order to continue attracting top drivers, Italy and Brazil for example...

Entertaining races today, and the best thing for me was confirmation that the new car does allow close racing and overtaking. There won't be any overtaking at Taupo but on decent circuits there will be.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by pirenzo

Well, hang on a minute. For many people, the intrigue and interest in the performance of the cars is very much part of the spectacle.
I would only be half as interested without this kind of discussion.

As someone whose earliest recollections of 'racing' centre mostly around the physical and sensory awe of vehicles at speed - the power, the driver working at the wheel, the sound echoing off the trees and the ground reverberating under your feet - the actual sporting spectacle, for me and I suspect many others, is actually relatively tame and uninteresting by comparison.

There's no reason why the physical capabilities of the car, the lap times they can achieve and other technical details can't be considered a substantial, if not the greater element of the sport by some people.

Really, the issue here is that the need to discuss both the car's performance, and the weekend at hand are conflicting with one another. Perhaps a moderator will consider splitting the thread, or allowing another to be started for one or the other topic?

Pirenzo, Thats why we have Formula One.. Its all about the cars performance..A1 is more about drivers performance for there country..If you want a faster car you need to look at major changes to the series, as the car will become much more labor intensive. Currently the cars are crated straight after a race and not accessed until the Wednesday prior to the race. (With no testing) Reliability is normally a compromise when you go faster.. There is also the issue of Ferrari engine, which is a compromise for having the the image as oposed to a dedicated race engine. I think A1GP has got it right!

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Mak

Pirenzo, Thats why we have Formula One.. Its all about the cars performance..A1 is more about drivers performance for there country..If you want a faster car you need to look at major changes to the series, as the car will become much more labor intensive.

Really? Perhaps you should tell that to the series organisers of GP2 or Superleague Formula or even Formula Nippon. Both series have cars that are signifcantly faster than the A1 GP machine, and both series do not allow testing in between races, as with A1 GP the cars are put into containers and transported to the next race venue.

The A1 GP organisers could have, and should have in my opinion made it clear to Ferrari that they wanted cars with a good level of performance. A1 GP is trying to attract some of the best talent outside F1, and at the moment it really isnt doing so, where are all the current main series GP2 drivers? Where are the IRL drivers? For me the series isnt attracting the same sort of driving talent now as it was a couple of years ago. I really had high hopes for the new A1 GP car but other than giving the series a slight boost in terms of promotion it doesent really seem to have done much. IMO.

[Mak]

Funny how Superleague has a faster car but A1 has the more popular show. A much higher profile, much more support and commitment from teams involved. The new car is a great improvement on the old, the only copromise being the engine which is part of the Ferrari package, which makes up for its lack of performance. I've worked on singleseaters for over 25 years and when watching I certainly cannot tell the difference between cars lapping a few seconds difference, unless they are on track together. All the driver response has been nothing but praise for the new car, as has the engineers. Think the general public like it to.

[SALEEN S7R]

A1 GP has a more popular show for the moment because it has been going for 4 seasons. Let's see how popular Superleague is in another 3 years time, personally I think the series will continue to go from strength to strength, looking at todays Jerez races it certainly appears so, reasonably big crowds (yes I know the series issues free tickets but so does many other big series), some good drivers, fast cars and a good TV package thanks to widespread coverage from Eurosport and Setanta Sports both showing the races live.

I cant claim to have been involved in motorsport for 25 years, but what I can tell the differnce between cars running 3-5 seconds a lap slower on the same circuit, you can see a slight differnce in corner speed as well as on the long straights at circuits like Sepang. Superleague has only been going 1 season but allready it has attracted top line drivers like Doornbos, Soucek, Pizzonia, and Zuber. Compare that with the current crop of A1 GP drivers, most of whom are F3 graduates or guys who hit F1 on the wrong angle and spun off into obscureity.

Anyway this is going massively off topic now and there is really nothing further of use for myself to add so this is my last word on this topic.

[strider]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

A1 GP has a more popular show for the moment because it has been going for 4 seasons. Let's see how popular Superleague is in another 3 years time, personally I think the series will continue to go from strength to strength, looking at todays Jerez races it certainly appears so, reasonably big crowds (yes I know the series issues free tickets but so does many other big series), some good drivers, fast cars and a good TV package thanks to widespread coverage from Eurosport and Setanta Sports both showing the races live.

I cant claim to have been involved in motorsport for 25 years, but what I can tell the differnce between cars running 3-5 seconds a lap slower on the same circuit, you can see a slight differnce in corner speed as well as on the long straights at circuits like Sepang. Superleague has only been going 1 season but allready it has attracted top line drivers like Doornbos, Soucek, Pizzonia, and Zuber. Compare that with the current crop of A1 GP drivers, most of whom are F3 graduates or guys who hit F1 on the wrong angle and spun off into obscureity.

Anyway this is going massively off topic now and there is really nothing further of use for myself to add so this is my last word on this topic.

I really don't like dealing with such such an off-topic subject in a thread that is supposed to be about Sepang, but it seems necessary. You may have have had your last word, but that doesn't mean the sub-topic is closed.

I could have watched the Superleague races today, but I chose not to. Instead I watched the A1GP races that I had pre-recorded. A1GP is slick, professional and highly entertaining. For me the drivers who take part are hugely more interesting than the ones in Superleague.

Just for the record, Doornbos also does A1GP when invited, Soucek does whatever he can these days, ditto Zuber, whilst Pizzonia is a lovely guy but has had his chance at everything else, so will do whatever's on offer nowadays.

Comparing them with the likes of Neel Jani, Adam Carroll, Loic Duval and several other A1GP drivers who are one their way up, rather than down, works only to the advantage of A1GP.

I could go on, but I'm bored already. Please Mods, if this debate is to continue, let it have its own thread. I want to talk about Sepang!

[diabloA1]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Track re surfacing would obviously make a slight differnce, still doesent explain how the cars are 3.0 seconds off of a GP2 Asia car and 3.4 seconds off of a Formula Nippon car though does it? Track re surfacing may make 1 or 2 seconds differnce yes but I would have thought it unlikely to make that much more of a differnce.

Track surface at Sepang has deteriorated quite a bit as all the drivers had found. The time set by last year's car was soon after resurfacing and drivers who were familiar with the circuit said grip levels were much improved then. So the Lola Zytek's ran last year on fresh grippy tarmac while this year's car ran on much poorer tarmac.



GP2 Asia ran early in the year when grip was still good. Fairuz Fauzy had driven there in GP2 Asia early this year and last weekend in A1GP. Before Friday practice he was very confident that teh car would be quicker than GP2 Asia at about 1:41 or 1:42. Based on his experience with the new car.



On Friday it he and all the other drivers with Sepang experience discovered that the track had deteriorated and offered a lot less grip.



The slow times reflected the poor surface. Nothing else. Let's wait and see what times GP2 Asia will do in April. Of course they might resurface the circuit before then, probably for F1.



But drivers are saying the new A1GP car is close to that of GP2 if not a little better at some circuits. It will be even faster when Ferrari starts increasing the revs. Strong suggestion this will happen once they are completely happy with reliability. Already in quali they are allowed to run at full 600hp. It's all part of the plan I'm sure.

[RichardRenes]

Still GBR seemed to have problems with electronics, and team NED did a manual start rather than testing launch control once more after Cheng-du.

[Mak]

Not sure why everyone is so worried about the ultimate pace of these cars. They handle well, are responsive to changes made which is why the drivers like them. The racing is close and exciting, with good passing oportunities. They are not a technical car as the changes able to be made are very limited, meaning all cars are very close and the driver skill is the primary feature, other than pit crew speed in pit stops. I don't see them being exceptionally quick, but the average spectator, which this series is aimed at will not notice this. When your average punter is sitting in his living room watch a race do you think they care if the car is a second or two faster or slower than some other formula? Can't seeing them being much faster at Taupo than the old car but who cares!

[thejester]

Originally Posted by Mak

Not sure why everyone is so worried about the ultimate pace of these cars. They handle well, are responsive to changes made which is why the drivers like them. The racing is close and exciting, with good passing oportunities. They are not a technical car as the changes able to be made are very limited, meaning all cars are very close and the driver skill is the primary feature, other than pit crew speed in pit stops. I don't see them being exceptionally quick, but the average spectator, which this series is aimed at will not notice this. When your average punter is sitting in his living room watch a race do you think they care if the car is a second or two faster or slower than some other formula? Can't seeing them being much faster at Taupo than the old car but who cares!

Perhaps you're confusing "worried" with "interested"?

People are interested in the comparative pace of the car for a number of reasons, but primarily because the impression was given that there would be a significant performance improvement with the new car.

Most importantly, if you go to the top of the thread, you'll notice that Kiwi 3 refers to a lap-time prediction by Fairuz Fauzy. It's this prediction - which turned out to be a little ambitious - that sparked all the discussion.

One other thing: whether or not the 'average spectator' or 'average punter' cares, is frankly irrelevant. This is the A1GP section of a motorsport dedicated discussion forum. I think it's safe to say that the members here are interested in the details of motorsport to a greatert than average degree.

[Kiwi3]

Thanks Asp for splitting the threads.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by thejester

Perhaps you're confusing "worried" with "interested"?

People are interested in the comparative pace of the car for a number of reasons, but primarily because the impression was given that there would be a significant performance improvement with the new car.

Most importantly, if you go to the top of the thread, you'll notice that Kiwi 3 refers to a lap-time prediction by Fairuz Fauzy. It's this prediction - which turned out to be a little ambitious - that sparked all the discussion.

One other thing: whether or not the 'average spectator' or 'average punter' cares, is frankly irrelevant. This is the A1GP section of a motorsport dedicated discussion forum. I think it's safe to say that the members here are interested in the details of motorsport to a greatert than average degree.

From an engineering point of veiw it is of no interest what lap times these cars achieve, other than who is fastest in the series. I agree that people should be interested in the performance,(not worried, although some do seem to be),but the performance does not just relate to over all times.. Other considerations are for (and IMO more important)handling, reaction to setup changes, drivability, reliabilty, design and quality. From a championship point of view entertainment is king. I think the fact that Fairuz has made such an optimistic prediction is just an indication of his feeling about the handling.. I believe that with the Ferrari engine designed for a roadcar you will never get the same acceleration as the old Zytek unit. I again say that this is not a bad thing when you consider the advantages to the championship profile. The fact that Fairuz thinks the car is quicker shows that the out right lap time has no major significants. Every formula has its limits set by regulations, just as F1 could do faster lap times if they had no regulations.

[Mak]

It is also dangerous to use lap time as a guage when there are so many variations, track conditions, track alterations, weather, tyres, support catergories, regulations, testing ect...

[diabloA1]

Spectator and entertainment viewpoint aside, comparison to GP2 will always be made. For A1GP to be taken very seriously by the motorsport fraternity, the expectation is that the car should not be slower than GP2. Fairuz feels it is not.

Also the Ferrari unit is more powerful(through higher displacement) than the old Zytek if you're looking at output alone. However it does weigh 40 kilos more than the Zytek.

It's got significantly more Torque (550Nm vs 420Nm) which directly affects acceleration though horsepower is only 50 more, which is a function of revs anyway. There are more revs to come from the engine. Apparently this engine really comes alive if given another few hundred rpm.

[Mak]

At most circuits (not F1 grade) 600hp is max which I am lead to believe they are currently running at. Not sure if this applies to just race circumstances or for the meeting. It may allow for boost to be engaged in qualifying but not for the race. I know that the engines are not accelerating as quick as the Zytek with new tyres, and the cars are heavier than the old. (due to extra engines weight) the Mitchelins are more consistent than the c**P Coopers. Anyway the only people who know for sure the power output are Ferrari, and I image they will keep it that way. Never know maybe they are being conservative.

[Mak]

meant not engageed for full laps in race?

[diabloA1]

Originally Posted by Mak

At most circuits (not F1 grade) 600hp is max which I am lead to believe they are currently running at. Not sure if this applies to just race circumstances or for the meeting. It may allow for boost to be engaged in qualifying but not for the race. I know that the engines are not accelerating as quick as the Zytek with new tyres, and the cars are heavier than the old. (due to extra engines weight) the Mitchelins are more consistent than the c**P Coopers. Anyway the only people who know for sure the power output are Ferrari, and I image they will keep it that way. Never know maybe they are being conservative.

Can you elaborate what you mean when you said '...engines are not accelerating as quick as the Zytek with new tyres..' ?

Are you saying that the engines revs are not rising as quickly or the car is not accelerating as quickly? In either case, can you share with us how you know this?

Also, although the new engine is heavier, the total car weight is not actually more than last year's car. They both weigh about the same actually. the added engine weight only adds somewhat to Polar Moment of Inertia, not total weight as they new chassis is lighter in other areas. Even then since testing drivers report that handling balance is very good despite the heavier engine

[Mak]

Using last years data, overlaying with this. I think you will find the cars are heavier this year.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Mak

Funny how Superleague has a faster car but A1 has the more popular show. A much higher profile, much more support and commitment from teams involved. The new car is a great improvement on the old, the only copromise being the engine which is part of the Ferrari package, which makes up for its lack of performance. I've worked on singleseaters for over 25 years and when watching I certainly cannot tell the difference between cars lapping a few seconds difference, unless they are on track together. All the driver response has been nothing but praise for the new car, as has the engineers. Think the general public like it to.

Question 1 : Is the Superleague car faster? As much as I like SF, the car is rather slow despite the 750hp number. 2.6 seconds slower per lap than GP2 at Nurburgring. The SF car has not ran at the same track as A1 though. It's a pretty heavy piece of kit (710 kg was what I heard), presumably because it at least appears to be from the ChampCar spare parts bin.

Question 2 : Why is SF not so well recognised? It's only had one year and it doesn't have a Sheikh backing it.