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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:12 (Ref:3754242)   #101
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18 months to get another manufacturer and resolve the 2019 ruleset. Tough times, but I believe (hope) not impossible as some posts make out.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:17 (Ref:3754244)   #102
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If the Audi and BMW wants to continue, they could enter 8-8 or 10-10 cars like Audi and Mercedes did earlier.

In 2 years they can switch to full SuperGT compatible technical rules, so they can open the doors for the japanese factories.

They also can open the doors with some kind of BoP system between the german atmospheric and japanese turbo engines, but this could work only inshort term imho.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:20 (Ref:3754248)   #103
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I think they should just treat 2018 as a stopgap, before making the big changes for 2019, with hopefully more makes on the grid
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:50 (Ref:3754253)   #104
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If the regs stay stable, could privateers run the C63s into 2019?
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:50 (Ref:3754254)   #105
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I think they need public guaranteed commitment to Class 1 from the German teams, hand in hand with a public commitment from at least one Japanese team to race in Europe, with a reciprocal commitment being important, but less urgent.

Anything other than that, and DTM will cease to exist as a "top level" manufacturer backed series.. and if it's not that... what'll it have that GT3, GT4 or TCR don't?
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:55 (Ref:3754256)   #106
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Would a 911 with the V8 from the Cayenne (or the same lump as Audi) be eligible for the DTM?
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 15:12 (Ref:3754269)   #107
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Would a 911 with the V8 from the Cayenne (or the same lump as Audi) be eligible for the DTM?
No. And, AFAIK, the DTM/SGT spec chassis works better with the engine placed in front.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 15:22 (Ref:3754270)   #108
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There was a similar hullaballoo when Audi and then BMW pulled out back in the day to concentrate on rental car racing. Difference I guess being there was still ITR knew Alfa was coming and Toyota were heavily considering it.

I really believe that using the GT3 regs as a template for a biggish touring series would make a fantastic spectacle. But I doubt Ratel would endorse it because it would annihilate the GT version in popularity.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 16:20 (Ref:3754282)   #109
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I suspect BMW will concentrate on their new GTE program (even though GTE also looks to be on shaky ground) and Audi can concentrate on customer cars for GT3 and TCR.
I'm afraid so. Without them, there's no DTM.

Opel, Alfa Romeo, all gone.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 16:22 (Ref:3754286)   #110
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I can see people trying to fill the void left by DTM this time around with DPis, Indycars or even a national version of Formula E.
Really? I can't imagine anyone trying that, as much as I wish.

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ADAC GT is still the rather amateurish two-driver/fixed-time pitstops format, so I could see a number of teams interested in a straight up single driver format. Probably not the majority, but they might be able to come up with a ten car GT3-field.
You mean like Pirelli World Challenge?
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 17:05 (Ref:3754299)   #111
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I'd like to see DTM adopt something more akin to an actual saloon car, with less of the carbon fibre, and more like an actual saloon like what they had during the 80s and early 90s.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 17:19 (Ref:3754304)   #112
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TCR for bigger saloons: BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Infiniti Q60, Alfa Romeo Giulia, etc. Like Italian Superstars in the past.

Or BTCC technical rules but RWD with cars I mentioned above.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3754305)   #113
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But without Mercedes I don't see DTM continue. I always got the impression Mercedes was the strong power behind the series, without them no DTM.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 18:14 (Ref:3754328)   #114
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Really? I can't imagine anyone trying that, as much as I wish.
I can. See, if DTM does indeed collapse - what options are on the table? They can't really continue in the carbonfibre-touring-car-prototype mold, because what's the point of rehashing that after you've just buried that very concept. They also can't drop down to TCR, because it lacks the spectacle that German audiences seem to want. So we need to come up with something new to Germany - and DPi has a LOT of momentum behind it right now. The same is true for Formula E. The Indycar-thing, I'll give you that - that really was pretty much wishful thinking on my part.

Okay, they might also come up with a new "big car" touring car ruleset - maybe some derivative of Aussie Supercars - but they have ignored calls to do just that for the last 15 years, so that seems almost as outlandish to me as the DPi, thing. Which, I'd like to add is really quite elegant as there is a readymade privateer option with the ACO-spec P2-cars and if all else fails you can use LMP3s as grid-fillers.

Again, I don't say that it'll definitely happen, but I can see people flying some test balloons...


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You mean like Pirelli World Challenge?
Pretty much, yeah.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 18:49 (Ref:3754349)   #115
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I think this is the perfect opportunity to set out a set of rules that allows saloon racing, however at a much lower cost, but faster than something like the BTCC and TCR.

If they took the TCR concept and said; "ok, well the TCR cars produce around 330BHP, a car ran easily in testing at 400BHP, so move to a 400BHP power target and then fit a larger front splitter, larger rear wing, lower the weight by 100kg and then you have yourself a TCR car on steriods. You could do "upgrade kits" for the current TCR cars.

The issue we have now is that there are so many touring car rulesets that fragment the investment and divide up the resources, when the opposite could happen and there could be say 4 sets of approved rules which covers a number of categories.

Group 1 - "Clio cup"
Group 2 - "TCR"
Group 3 - "BTCC"
Group 4 - "DTM"
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 19:12 (Ref:3754357)   #116
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I would really like a DTM with the BTCC technical regulations. TCN-1 is not thought for official manufacturers, I know it, but IMHO it could bring a lot of cars on the DTM grid.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 19:21 (Ref:3754360)   #117
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I'd forgotten about EUROC. Those cars looked so cool. Let manufacturers drop big V8s in the front and let's play!
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 20:33 (Ref:3754383)   #118
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DPi has a LOT of momentum behind it right now.

There is a readymade privateer option with the ACO-spec P2-cars
There's not many German LMP2 teams now, or before. It has mostly been a France vs Britain class.

I think that German manufacturers will stick to GT, as all four have big GT3 programs and two have GTLM programs.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 21:04 (Ref:3754388)   #119
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There was a time when the DRM ran Group C, so a national sports car sprint championship isn't unprecedented.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 21:14 (Ref:3754389)   #120
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There was a time when the DRM ran Group C, so a national sports car sprint championship isn't unprecedented.
That didn't work out too well, but the Group C Supercup at the end of the 80s was really quite successful.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 02:40 (Ref:3754428)   #121
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TCR for bigger saloons: BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Infiniti Q60, Alfa Romeo Giulia, etc. Like Italian Superstars in the past.
I'd love this. Leave them fairly production-looking with minimal aero and make sure they squirm around a bit on braking/power-down... Basically what made the Group A stuff so fun to watch.

Not counting the obvious German trio, there are some cool international additions that we could dream about:
Jaguar XE
Alfa Giulia
Lexus IS
Infiniti Q60
Cadillac ATS
Opel Insignia
Volvo S60

It's obviously dreaming, but those renders of modern versions of classic touring car liveries that popped up a while back made me fantasize about it.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 09:25 (Ref:3754453)   #122
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http://www.motorsport-total.com/dtm/...-17072004.html

So, summerize the info's we know atthis moment.

- Next season (2018) there will be 3 manufacturers, Audi, BMW and Mercedes.
- The Mercedes leave in the and of the season.
- 2 liter turbo engines introduce from 2019, same as the japanese SuperGT use in their top class.
- This will open the door for the japanese manufacturers.

Imho this will be perfect for Honda.

They have a succesfull TC1 car in the WTCC, but we all know TC1 has no real future.

So if the Honda and Volvo can make some kind of agreement too enter 5-6 cars in next year in WTCC, with the Citroens the WTCC can held a last season with TC1 cars.

Next season the Honda/JAS can switch to the new DTM. Volvo might follow them.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 09:33 (Ref:3754455)   #123
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Would a 911 with the V8 from the Cayenne (or the same lump as Audi) be eligible for the DTM?
OT: I would have loved to see the Panamera and 2-3 teams like Manthey or some of the other german Porsche Teams compete in DTM in around 2008-2011.

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I can. See, if DTM does indeed collapse - what options are on the table? They can't really continue in the carbonfibre-touring-car-prototype mold, because what's the point of rehashing that after you've just buried that very concept. They also can't drop down to TCR, because it lacks the spectacle that German audiences seem to want. So we need to come up with something new to Germany - and DPi has a LOT of momentum behind it right now. The same is true for Formula E. The Indycar-thing, I'll give you that - that really was pretty much wishful thinking on my part.
Or they could simplify the carbonfibre-touring-car-prototype enough that the public may very well accept it again. It's not like no one cares about those cars, they still do have some sort of audience.

But DPi/LMP2? For once they are cheaper than DTM or at least more affordable for private teams. Then we don't have a sprint series for prototypes in Europe so far. But would such a series find the same kind of audience DTM nowadays gets? And what teams could compete in such a series? I could see Phoenix or Rosberg making such a jump, but HWA definitely won't do that - unless the Mercedes-DPi rumours gain traction once again - and the BMW teams won't go there as well. But I admit, a P2/DPi sprint series isn't the worst alternative post-DTM.

First of all the ITR has to ask themselves, what they want to achieve with the DTM? Where do they want to go? Because the philosophy of providing advertising space for manufacturers hasn't worked out in the long-term. So the DTM has to reinvent themselves, in order to have a chance at survival. Such a thing can only work, if they start encouraging private entries into the DTM once again. There are rumours about the implementation of a 2 litre turbo spec engine and such a thing might work in a series primarily catering to privateers - the BTCC uses a similar approach after all. But the cars overall would have to become much cheaper as well.

But even then, where would, where could the DTM stand on the motorsport ladder? In my opinion, it could position itself above the GT3s and TCRs. It could be a series where the best of both categories - along with some single-seater drivers - could compete with each other. If the cars become more similar to GTs and TCs, then such a thing might happen.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 13:32 (Ref:3754492)   #124
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As far as Class One goes, Sam Collins was talking about this during the Super GT coverage the other week.

The DTM I4 Turbo will be spec, it'll be the same for all three manufacturers, and will be development frozen. The SGT I4 Turbo are manufacturer developed, without a freeze. This could lead to a performance gap between the German based cars and the Japanese based cars.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 15:17 (Ref:3754506)   #125
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It's funny how only a looming crisis has pushed this thread up the board.

A spec engine is a really bad idea. Could push Audi and BMW out. Diminishes the racing credibility for them.
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