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Old 20 May 2003, 15:30 (Ref:604882)   #1
LucaBadoer
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LucaBadoer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
2003 points system Vs 2002 points system

2003 Championship under 2002 points system:

1) MS 3,1,0,10,10,10 = 34
2) KR 4,10,6,6,0,6 = 32
3) RB 0,6,0,4,4,4 = 18
4) DC 10,0,3,2,0,2 = 17
5) FA 0,4,4,1,6,0 = 15
6) GF 0,0,10,0,0,0 = 10
7) JPM 6,0,0,0,3,0 = 9
8) RS 0,3,0,3,2,1 = 9
9) JT 2,2,0,0,0,0 = 4
10) JB 0,0,0,0,0,3 = 3
11) HHF 1,0,2,0,0,0 = 3
12) JVi 0,0,1,0,0,0 = 1
13) CDM 0,0,0,0,1,0 = 1
12) MW 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
15) NH 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
16) RFJ 0,0,0,0,o,0 = 0
17) AP 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
18) JW 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
19) JVe 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
20) OP 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0



2003 Championship under 2003 points system:

1) KR 6,10,8,8,0,8 = 40
2) MS 5,3,0,10,10,10 = 38
3) RB 0,8,0,6,6,6 = 26
4) FA 2,6,6,3,8,0 = 25
5) DC 10,0,5,4,0,4 = 23
6) RS 1,5,2,5,4,3 = 20
7) JPM 8,0,0,2,5,0 = 15
8) GF 0,0,10,0,0,0 = 10
9) JT 4,4,1,0,0,1 = 10
10) JB 0,2,0,1,0,5 = 8
11) HHF 3,0,4,0,0,0 = 7
12) MW 0,0,0,0,2,2 = 4
13) JVi 0,0,3,0,0,0 = 3
14) CDM 0,0,0,0,3,0 = 3
15) NH 0,1,0,0,0,0 = 1
16) RFJ 0,0,0,0,1,0 = 1
17) AP 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
18) JW 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
19) JVe 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0
20) OP 0,0,0,0,0,0 = 0



Biggest gainers/losers in 2003 over 2002 (In terms of championship position)

LOSERS:
1) GF = down 2 positions; same points
2) JVi = down 1 position; +2 points
3) CDM = down 1 position; +2 points
4) MS = down 1 position; +4 points
5) DC = down 1 position; +6 points

WINNERS:
1) RS = up 2 positions; +11 points
2) FA = up 1 position; +10 points
3) KR = up 1 position; +8 points

NON-MOVERS:
1) RB = same position; +8 points
2) JPM = same position; +6 points
= JT = same position; +6 points
4) JB = same position; +5 points
5) HHF = same position; +4 points
= MW = same position; +4 points
7) NH = same position; +1 point
= RFJ = same position; +1 point
9) AP = same position; same points (zero)
= JW = same position; same points (zero)
= JVe = same position; same points (zero)
= OP = same position; same points (zero)



POINT INCREASES UNDER NEW SYSTEM
1) RS = +11 points
2) FA = +10 points
3) KR = +8 points
= RB = +8 points
5) JPM = +6 points
= JT = +6 points
= DC = +6 points
8) JB = +5 points
9) MS = +4 points
= HHF = +4 points
= MW = +4 points
12) JVi = +2 points
= CDM = +2 points
14) NH = +1 point
= RFJ = +1 point
16) GF = same points
= AP = same points
= JW = same points
= JVe = same points
= OP = same points



Well then, this new points system seems to be working nicely - keeping TGF off the top of the championship! hehe

(Oh, and I apologise in advance for any mistakes I've made)

Last edited by LucaBadoer; 20 May 2003 at 15:37.
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Old 20 May 2003, 16:11 (Ref:604939)   #2
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That's really interesting to look at, actually.

Clear to see that the rule changes have worked.
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Old 20 May 2003, 16:53 (Ref:604987)   #3
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Cheers LB!

It appears to me that for the front runners the old system is less fair (MS 3 wins!), but perhaps for the lower teams it does reward those lower places.

Mark Webber gets some deserved points for a couple 7ths, but Ralf has gained a bit, when he probably didn't really deserve to (if you see what I mean! 7th in a Jag is worth something. 7th in a Williams isn't).
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Old 20 May 2003, 17:04 (Ref:605006)   #4
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Stevespurr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
There will allways be the winners and lossers even if you had point down to 20 place someone would complain!
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Old 20 May 2003, 17:06 (Ref:605012)   #5
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kimi020 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It is keeping the championship very close, the 4 point gap last year was two big between first and second. I think it would be good to have points a bit further down the field, then you would get a true level of performance over the season, rather than a few drivers at the bottom on 1 or 0 points.
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Old 20 May 2003, 17:11 (Ref:605019)   #6
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Red should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by kimi020
the 4 point gap last year was two big between first and second
You kidding right? It's been 2 points beforte, then 3 points then eventually 4. How can you explain that 3 wins in row and the championship is still lead by a single win driver?

They did come to that 4 points difference because otherwise it is possible that the championship can be won by someone who actually does not win a single race. Not that I complain, but is something that doesn't quite fit into this picture you know...
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Old 20 May 2003, 17:35 (Ref:605072)   #7
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kimi020 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
F1 has got to be entertaining, if you have got one driver running away with the championship then it will get less popular than it is now. This comment might not be the most sensible thing to say on a F1 forum! but the best points system has got to be NASCAR.
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Old 20 May 2003, 17:39 (Ref:605080)   #8
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Red should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
We can discuss about entertainment too.... Indeed the championship remains open for a little longer, but I watch races because I like races. If the championship is all that interests me I can buy a newspaper in October to see who won it..

Anyway.. a driver would smoke his tyres to overtake for lead in the race if that means 4 points (make it even more) but calmly and wisely will stay put for only 2. If it can overtake in pits (and now they have 3 pitstops to make it work) is Ok, if not, is only 2 points...
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Old 20 May 2003, 17:56 (Ref:605109)   #9
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kimi020 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It wouldnt be much fun watching F1 if there were 16 non championship races, but the racing is the most important thing.
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Old 20 May 2003, 18:01 (Ref:605116)   #10
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
NASCAR's points system is ridiculous.

It's possible to finish second in a race and come away with more points than the winner.
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Old 20 May 2003, 18:11 (Ref:605127)   #11
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Everyone one has there own opinions!, NASCAR must be doing something that F1 isnt, F1 tv figures fell last year the same cant be said for NASCAR.
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Old 20 May 2003, 18:44 (Ref:605161)   #12
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Oh, nice work Luca.

I don't know about NASCAR, but the new points system proved to improve the competition, and if Kimi get in the points consistently, TGF will be in trouble.
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Old 20 May 2003, 21:24 (Ref:605319)   #13
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Good work Luca, but i worry that you have a little too much time on your hands
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Old 21 May 2003, 02:50 (Ref:605503)   #14
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RT should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridRT should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid

C'mon, let's wake up.

The new system may be keeping things "exciting" by under-rewarding the winner.

The problem is that this new system also over-punishes the risk-taker that may end up with a DNF and no practical way of making up for the DNF in a significant way in two or three races.

All in all, this new point allocation has all the potential to turn the last four or five races into a real snore-fest since the guy in front will just play it safely and the guy behind will not take chances because that would really mean the end of his season. It will be a matter of waiting for the other driver to make a mistake....while we all fall sound asleep.....(hope I'm wrong but I don't think so)

Cheers (sort of)

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Old 21 May 2003, 06:11 (Ref:605576)   #15
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DNQ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As a big McLaren fan, guess which points system I prefer?
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Old 21 May 2003, 07:57 (Ref:605616)   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Red
You kidding right? It's been 2 points beforte, then 3 points then eventually 4. How can you explain that 3 wins in row and the championship is still lead by a single win driver?
Because that single win driver hasn't thrown his car of the track or into other cars as much a the 3 wins in a row driver.
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Old 21 May 2003, 08:16 (Ref:605631)   #17
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Huh? You kidding me too!!! Michael hit 1 car, agreed, so did Kimi (difference is that Michael continued race while Kimi didn't). So, they both have 1 hit and 1 DNF. Still there are 2 wins unaccountd for.

PS: Of course, 4 poles (to none for Kimi) and 3 fastest laps (1 for Kimi) don't really count, we already agreed on that.
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Old 21 May 2003, 09:02 (Ref:605673)   #18
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Smokey 6 litre should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Stevespurr
There will allways be the winners and lossers even if you had point down to 20 place someone would complain!
Most likely to be Ron Dennis
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Old 21 May 2003, 14:23 (Ref:605929)   #19
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krt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridkrt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Red and RT are spot on. To those of you suggesting that the new system is "working", what do you mean by that? Do you mean that the guy who wins the most races should be prevented from leading the championship for as long as possible? Do you mean that consistancy - and driving for position - rather than really going for it and causing excitement is what we want to see? Or do you just mean that the system is stopping Schuey from leading, which should be postponed for as long as possible irrespective of on-track performance.

I want to see close RACING - with the cars evenly matched, overtaking and fighting all the way. Depending on your view this is either a) happening already or b) needs to be made to happen (perhaps by changing the TECHNICAL rules). The point of a championship is to find the best car/driver combinaton and a points system should merely be a way of giving a means of working this out, not to create the excitement.

Finally, we should all be able to enjoy the races whether the championship has been decided or not.

PS. Good work with the stats Luca!
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Old 21 May 2003, 15:13 (Ref:605983)   #20
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The most consistent is rewarded, TGF hasn't been consistent in the first 3 races, and now slowly he's taking the lead. If he continues consistent as he is now then he will be rewarded with the championship. Kimi will have to deal with winning more races than TGF if he wants to be champion. So, why is not working ? That means that the championship would be decided in the final races rather than 6 races before the end ! If this is not improving competition, then I don't know what is. Even the 4rd and 5th place in the championship can have a good chance to challenge if they start to be more consistent or winning races.

I want to see close RACING too. How do we get that ? Like Kimi holding RB ? TGF passing Kimi ? JPM and Ralfie wheel to wheel ? Pizzonia with Trulli ?

I guess something has changed.
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Old 21 May 2003, 15:27 (Ref:605993)   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by krt917
Do you mean that the guy who wins the most races should be prevented from leading the championship for as long as possible?
Brilliant!! In a nustshell, yep, that's the idea!!

Yo guys, I don't have a problem with promoting consistency and strongly discouraging bold and daring moves. If that's the rules, then fine. That's why it is a Championship. Wiser team and smartest driver will still win (be it consistent mediocre) I do have a problem with the "improve show and entertainment" though, when clearly that point system does little in that dirrection. Also I have a problem because those who urge for "increase overtakings and on-track show" were the first to hail this new point system.
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Old 21 May 2003, 23:11 (Ref:606395)   #22
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Wins arguably cannot be the only factor determining WDC winner (reasonable counter-examples can be said). Winning ratio against consistent good positions is a choice that can be moved towards one or other extreme. IMO, NASCAR scoring is way too extreme, in fact I can barely believe they use it

Until Austria, Kimi had outperformed MS in 3 of 5 races so it was not strange he is above MS in a "regularity" point system. Now they are 3-3 in face to face terms. I suppose WDC should outperform any rival along the season (but it is not an absolute criterion neither).

I like this system except I think the ratio between 1st and 2nd is a bit too small. I find 11-8-6-4-3-2-1 would be very nice (and MS & KR would be tied!! ). About the old system, I prefered the former system 9-6-4-3-2-1, because 10-6 is too much all or nothing and doesn't fit with the rest of the scores (6-4-3-2-1).

We have now a system similar to FIM bike racing's system: 25-20-16-13... if you multiply by 2.5 you get it aproximatively. IMO FIM bike racing is exciting and they fight probably more than F1 drivers , so this new system cannot be so bad
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Old 22 May 2003, 02:39 (Ref:606463)   #23
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It has had the expected effect of keeping things a bit closer, and helping those a bit lower down to gain some points. However, Ferrari screwing up so much has certainly helped too...

The new points system isn't goingto make a huge difference overall I doubt, in terms of the leaders; but the mid-to-lower team WCC battle - it could be critical for that, which is certainly interesting.

In all honesty, it is weather which has made the difference to the start of this year. Yes, a couple of folks have had to start much further back than normal because of screwing up on their qualie lap: if seeing people unable to achieve their maximum performance is what you wish, then I guess all is well... It is interesting though to think about qualy so far: 5/6 poles to Ferrari, 4-1 for Michael. I think its quite amusing at least.

The gap from 1st to 2nd being two points? Not correct in my opinion, but that is all it is. There rest is fair enough, I guess. I do not like too much a team can win a race, but yet come out losing points: one 1st is 10 pts; but the other team gets 2nd and 3rd, which is 8pts plus 6pts - 14pts. A four point disadvantage to the team which wins the race. The old system meant the winning team did not gain anything, but held evens: that is good, it punishes the winning team for having one DNF, but yet still acknowledges their achievement of victory. The rest? Acceptable enough, I am yet to bear complete judgement. Although, I guess, the changed system has played into Renault's hands very well.

Last edited by Dutton; 22 May 2003 at 02:41.
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Old 23 May 2003, 09:26 (Ref:607545)   #24
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Speedworx should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The new points system is achieving what it was introduced to do.
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Old 23 May 2003, 10:56 (Ref:607644)   #25
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krt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridkrt917 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Yes, but what does that MEAN exactly (see above!)

Dutton, I agree that apart from the gap between 1st and 2nd, the new system is good. I like the idea of rewarding more teams/drivers with points, especially as it is so difficult to break the stranglehold that the 'big three' have had in recent years (Renault look the most likely).

It's just wrong at the top!
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