How Do We Judge a Marshal's Abilities?

[Jacko]

I think that there also are some things going on behind the scenes that PC's/IO's are not involved in. As an experienced marshall I will have a quiet word with a trainee if I feel that he has taken his eye off of the ball or got things slightly wrong. No-one is perfect, we all screw up at times. The important thing is to keep the learning process going.

[SouthportFC Fan]

There's a couple of points I'd like to add to this.

The first is that we shouldn't forget the input senior incident or flag marshals can also have into the training of trainees. Any senior marshal, which is every marshal with a coloured badge, from a trainee's point of view, should be regarded as a potential trainer or mentor for the day. Describing why an incident is being handled in a particular way, enquiring as to their wellbeing on an extreme day, weatherwise, ensuring their OK after being involved in clearing up a major incident (and not just straight away, but all through the remainder of the day). All small things, but the drip-feed method of bringing people up to a certain level of competency is a good technique, particularly with our way of training by experience gained.

The second one - assessing marshals capabilities. If you know them, or have worked with them before, it should be no problem. Wrt trainees or marshals you've never worked with before, it's not easy. State of equipment, number of days, first or second year as trainee ?, demeanour, all those things and more. Generally, it's how you would assess anybody you meet for the first time plus a couple of relevant questions. Another thing you can do is take a quick peek at the PRCs early in the day.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the comments about negative feedback. The first time the trainee (for any grade) should find out about an issue is not as a statement on their PRC. It should be by the tried and trusted method of 'Can I have a quiet word please ?'

Finally, I don't think anyone yet has mentioned the idea of upward assessment, i.e. all other marshals on a post assessing and commenting on the performance of IOs and PCs. Any suggestions as to how it could be done ? It is in the company where I work.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Dean Watson

perhaps I worded my previous post slightly wrong, when i said i would refuse to sign a card I should have added that I would make a written comment after explaining the reasons why I would not sign.

Signatures are merely a record of attendance, so you can't refuse to sign on the basis of unacceptable behaviour, attitude or performance; in any case, by making a written comment you have, in effect, signed the card!

[zakeriath]

Originally Posted by The Hat

On the other hand if a member of the team on any particular day uses a phone
I had a scenario when it was the post chief acting as above, What should my course of action been?

Be careful about judging PC`s on a mobil phone, sometimes the CoC will call the PC on the mobil to discuss certain matters. This is a valid reason for using them.

[deley]

Originally Posted by SouthportFC Fan

Finally, I don't think anyone yet has mentioned the idea of upward assessment, i.e. all other marshals on a post assessing and commenting on the performance of IOs and PCs. Any suggestions as to how it could be done ?

what an excellent idea .... this could also cover things like on-post briefings or rather the lack there of (and I know the "Richards" have tried to instill these into the SE as mentioned but take up is slow)

a healthy discussion which hopefully will spark ideas as to how to continue to maintain and improve marshalling generally and the marshal's experiences

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I'm of the opinion that you can spot a really good marshal or a really poor one by 10:30 on their first day. .

this!

Originally Posted by The Hat

I had a scenario when it was the post chief acting as above, (sitting down and on the phone) What should my course of action been?

Watch, listen and learn - by that I mean perhaps the PC was old & tired and needed a sit down.

let me explain further

I know you (the 10/10th collective) will damn me to hell and back, but I have been known to sit for the odd minute or two during long races where my back was going into spasm (thus distracting me from concentrating on what's in front of me). However, my years of experience allow me to judge that 2 minutes on a haybale, watching the traffic whilst behind 25 metres plus of gravel trap, triple layer tyre wall, armco and a 5 metre high chain link on top of that might not pose a serious hazard to me (or any of my team acting similarly - with my prior agreement).

As for the phone calls. Perhaps they have responsibilities outside of racing that requires 24hr contactability. I & others like my regular IO do. This means occasionally having to take calls mid race, but I always make sure somebody else in the team is covering for me while I take that call. However, if I'm already dealing with an incident, your granny/wife/child will just have to wait for their transplant a little bit longer...

never stop learning. always ask the question

Even if you have an idiot trying to teach you, you'll be thinking about things under discussion and formulating what you would regard as a better course of action.
(that's my get out clause...)

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by zakeriath

Be careful about judging PC`s on a mobil phone, sometimes the CoC will call the PC on the mobil to discuss certain matters. This is a valid reason for using them.

A very good point, and one which has jogged a memory. At last year's Birkett (6 hour non-stop relay race at Silverstone for the uninitiated), I was on a flag point, entirely on my own. Post chief was in an observers box 50 yards away. Said post chief gave me his phone number and said "call me if you need anything"

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by deley

(re 360 degree appraisal as it's called) what an excellent idea .... this could also cover things like on-post briefings or rather the lack there of (and I know the "Richards" have tried to instill these into the SE as mentioned but take up is slow)

a healthy discussion which hopefully will spark ideas as to how to continue to maintain and improve marshalling generally and the marshal's experiences

If marshalling becomes too like my day job (CPD, appraisal, targets, customer satifaction surveys, management ******speak from those that don't actually do the job), I'm off....

I missed this year's training day at Brands (somebody's granny was sick, see previous post) so don't even know if the 2 Richarsd even held a session preaching their gospels to the PCs and IOs - I know they had a session with the Saturday mob.

So emm, MSA registered trainers .. how do you get your message across to the non attendees like me. Likewise to those that administer the scheme, what is being done to ensure compliance with the standards that are promulgated?

Finally for PCs, how can you check someones experience from a PRC if they don't have one or don't hand it over cos there not an upgrade junkie or wanting to go to a GP?
I reckon 25% of my team on an average weekend don't hand over a card.

[The Fat Clerk]

I've spent 5 days Observing so far this season and have only been asked to sign 3 cards!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Richard Sneader

I believe what is needed is a system of continuose assessments and this needs to be for all grades. Currently if an IO or PC makes 6 weeks of mistakes what is the punishment? .

If anyone is a continual poor performer what do those that brought in the scheme envisage to correct the individual's deficiencies. (not punish please Rich, this is a democracy of volunteers not some feudal state run by a few high and mighties in possession of big sticks)

Anyway, punish or make adverse (if perhaps truthful) comments about a few and soon you'll have nobody wanting to work with that PC 'cos he/she is a "nasty one".

Why stop at PC's...is a there in place a scheme that ensures Chief marshals can benefit from appraisal or CoC's or event directors or even MSA officials.?

[The Fat Clerk]

When I'm a MSA Steward, the club that's running the event I'm at, pass comment on me, and vice versa, This goes back to the MSA.

[Bodysnatcher]

thanks FC, did'nt know that, is a there a feedback mechanism in place to ensure continuous improvement from both sides?
like i said

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

never stop learning. always ask the question

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

When I'm a MSA Steward, the club that's running the event I'm at, pass comment on me, and vice versa, This goes back to the MSA.

This!

The Clerks always have a debrief with the Stewards at the end of a meeting where feedback, both negative and positive is given by the Stewards to the Clerks.

I think it's a balancing act, I would also not want it to get too much like work (it's appraisal time here and we lose hours and hours of time with people whinging about them!) BUT clearly we do need a system that works and ensures that our PC's have good training skills. I'm not sure I know how we achieve that.

As for phones, I've said this elsewhere, I couldn't/wouldn't turn mine off all day - I have family commitments that mean I want to be contactable at all times which I imagine is the case for most of us (and yes I know those as old as me and older managed fine before we had mobiles...). I don't expect others to turn their's off either but I do expect, as with scanners, that they should be used sensibly and without putting the user, the rest of their team and the competitors at risk.

Sitting down? Well some of you old folks need to don't you? Joking aside, I'd rather see someone sitting in a "safe" location than marshals leaning on the armco!

[Steven Humphrey]

Good thread this (makes a change from the usual moans!). I think you can get a much better indication of someones competence level by just chatting for half hour or so than looking at the colour badge they're wearing. Only recently I was posted with a trainee with over 3 years experience, including several 'biggies', and an IO who was under half my age. Guess who I trusted most? This is the only downfall of the grading system but the recent changes are definately an improvement.

Regarding comments written on cards-this is something that is much more worthwhile than attendance signatures but I have to admit it is hard to get anything written in the comments section. I've only had 2 comments in 35 days. Admittedly, I've not had many incidents to deal with beyond live snatches/pushes & clean ups but the busiest day I had this year, we had no PC! The PRCs do say that we can write comments ourselves but how seriously will these be taken when it comes to upgrade time?

[cowchap]

All good points about the mobiles and sitting down Alasdair and naturally they apply to all marshals and not just PC/IO

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Admittedly, I've not had many incidents to deal with beyond live snatches/pushes & clean ups but the busiest day I had this year, we had no PC!

In this context, "Post Chief" refers to the duty, not the grade.

The PRCs do say that we can write comments ourselves but how seriously will these be taken when it comes to upgrade time?

I wondered how long it would be before somebody mentioned that!

[Saucy]

Originally Posted by SRPhoto

Maybe it depends where you Marshal and who the PC or IO is?

At Oulton and Anglesey I see comments in peoples cards, as IO I have several in mine even though I intend to stay at IO (I have a different book for PC grading).

I think if a verbal comment had been made (especially a good one) then a polite request to the PC to put it in the record book should surely be carried out, maybe before the end of the day is best!

Well said Steve, as will some other comments on another thread regarding scanners I totally agree with you. It seems those of us that Marshal at Anglesey and Oulton regulary are just spoilt because we have such a great team that work well together, have fun together (no smut, please) and manage to relax and still get the job done. Perhaps others should take note on the way the BMMC NW Marshals do things

[warweezil]

Originally Posted by Piglet

As for phones, I've said this elsewhere, I couldn't/wouldn't turn mine off all day - I have family commitments that mean I want to be contactable at all times which I imagine is the case for most of us (and yes I know those as old as me and older managed fine before we had mobiles...). I don't expect others to turn their's off either but I do expect, as with scanners, that they should be used sensibly and without putting the user, the rest of their team and the competitors at risk.

I'm in that "Family responsibility" position (hence the missed training day this year) and have told the family that if they call during an interval between races and I'm not occupied with my duties I will answer otherwise let it "ring out" to give me a good chance of hearing it or of feeling the thing vibrate and then I will know to check the missed calls list at first safe opportunity and will get straight back to them, but above all they know not to casually call me on race days - on the whole they are pretty good with it.

[Nighthawk]

AS a examining post chief I still do aleast 5 days marshalling as a incident marshall just to keep my skills homed...
Some-times i do this with a I/O as post chief and yes i do make mistakes and been told so. this helps....yes i do ask for comments to be put in the book good or bad..

[HairyDJ]

I recall being told that the best way to assess a newbie was to see how quickly they asked about marshalling at the F1 Grand Prix. PPE tends to give a better indication that badge colour in my opinion, as it reflects attitude.

As somebody who gets a lot of first timers for company, I find that chatting one on one even before we start gives a quick gut feel. Watching their reaction to near misses can be very revealing - the "wow he nearly had a biggie" said excitedly suggests they might be there for the buzz of crashes. Those who ask "what would we have done if that had turned into ......" are big winners in my book.

As the first hour or so passes, I'll pay particular attention to how they react to the traffic - if they always remember to keep looking the right way and can also recognise the leaders / back markers, then my level of trust will rise.

Importantly, if they seem particularly strong or weak, I'll make sure I'm feeding back examples to the PC / IO - I've the luxury of small numbers compared to their larger team to watch over.


Regarding upward feedback - I like the theory, but agree that the last thing needed would be to turn a day on the bank into another day at work! I have fed my thoughts back to various CM or similar bods at times, but do so with some trepidation as knocking their best mate will be ignored and praising them will add no value? If anybody on my post (regardless of grade) is really impressive with a rookie, I'll make sure that I feed that back - in the hope that the best mentors get recognised regardless of grade. I am saddened when I come across black X grades who don't write comments even when asked, or need to have current grading scheme / upgrade process explained to them.

I do like to discuss actions on adjacent posts with trainees - done carefully to avoid it seeming to be a "slagging off" of the others. Learning from other people's mistakes doesn't hurt as much as from your own! A recent example that my IO used was to ask a trainee watching a live snatch several questions as it progressed - by the end, he could see exactly why 2 orange bods walking alongside the JCB with race traffic whizzing towards them might have hurt .... much more likely to stick in the memory than lots of theoretical stuff.

Hopefully, those PCs who use the PRC to get a quick first impression are the best at making sure a good entry gets made at the end of the day to help the next one?

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Only recently I was posted with a trainee with over 3 years experience, including several 'biggies', and an IO who was under half my age. Guess who I trusted most? This is the only downfall of the grading system but the recent changes are definately an improvement.

I'm a course marshal [but usually flag, upgrade been in progress for ever], I've got 6 years experience, and I'm 24 - which is, I believe 16 years younger than you - so not quite half your age.

Would you trust me? My point is that you can't judge by age.

Oh yeah... and as for gauging keenness by willingness to do the grand prix - that's guys like me stuffed isn't it?

[Startline Ed]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Good thread this (makes a change from the usual moans!). I think you can get a much better indication of someones competence level by just chatting for half hour or so than looking at the colour badge they're wearing. Only recently I was posted with a trainee with over 3 years experience, including several 'biggies', and an IO who was under half my age. Guess who I trusted most? This is the only downfall of the grading system but the recent changes are definately an improvement.

If I may query something please Steve? Was it solely the IO's age or was it his experience as well?

I am 23 but have 7 full seasons of experience and I am looking to upgrade to Experienced Specialist, which under the old system took a minimum of 3 years at Specialist grade.

My point is that I think it is unwise to assume that youth=inexperience. It also doesn't help to develop younger marshals if they are discounted due to their age.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Startline Ed

My point is that I think it is unwise to assume that youth=inexperience. It also doesn't help to develop younger marshals if they are discounted due to their age.

Conversely, it doesn't follow that age equals experience. Number of years' experience isn't a good indication of ability, either; five years at three meetings per year or one year with twenty meetings - who's the more experienced. Then again, experience shouldn't be confused with time-serving. It's not how long you've been at the job that matters, it's what you've learnt in that time.

[Startline Ed]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Conversely, it doesn't follow that age equals experience. Number of years' experience isn't a good indication of ability, either; five years at three meetings per year or one year with twenty meetings - who's the more experienced. Then again, experience shouldn't be confused with time-serving. It's not how long you've been at the job that matters, it's what you've learnt in that time.

Very true Dave. I think that as has been mentioned in several of the preceding posts is that the best way to get a decent impression of a marshal's experience is by chatting to them.

[FRENCHIE44T]

Well I have just read through this and just wanted to say that I dont think you can ever get too much experience. I have been marshaling for nearly 22years. I treat every meeting as a new expericnce, and it tookme over 5 years until I got my Red badge. I was not bothered, as I dont believe that it should be looked on as a race just to get rid of your Trainee badge. Also although I have a local circuit that I go to regularly. I also go to other circuits to gain further expierience and different situations.

In fact on my 1st meeting I did I was wondering if I was off my head. F3000 at Westfield at Brands. WOW. I can still remeber it now.