Blame Ferrari

[Glen]

Blame them? What? Thank them more like - thank them for redefining the levels of excellence, for pushing sport ever higher. If the other teams can't match them that is entirely their own fault.

All totally academic anyway - it will be much tighter in Malaysia and these threads will be looked back on with amusement.

[climb]

Glen,
I'm sure the first part of what you say is true, and hope the second is, as well.

[Ryder]

Every team has their high points. Williams had it with Hill, McLaren with Hakkinnen..........and like those high points Ferraris and Schumachers will end....................soon I hope.

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by Kirk
Yoong, but that's not the point. RB is allowed to race with MS only on a limited basis, and that's something top drivers cannot and will not accept. And who can blame them? RB is not a bad driver but his acceptance of that role is demeaning IMO.

Senna accepted that risk when he joined McLaren in 1988 didn't he? Prost was the No.1 driver before that, same as Schumacher at Ferrari now. And look what happened. Senna beat Prost to the title in their first season as teammates.

If, say, Raikkonen or Montoya were to join Ferrari and outperform Schumacher regularly, do you really think that Ferrari would sabotage them or fire them for outracing Schumacher? Schumi deserves his No.1 status at Ferrari - it's up to the others to try to take it away from him. Too bad only Irvine and Barrichello have tried so far.

That's just my opinion of course.

[Kirk]

Once again, you miss the point. Senna was not told from day one that he was there to support Prost. Yes Prost was #1 driver when he arrived but Senna was allowed to race him (otherwise he would have abstained from going there at all I'm sure, same as most of todays top drivers would do) ... And there is little doubt that those two provided the best spectacle of team rivalry ever. F1 (or should I say Ferrari) need to return to that. And frankly the BS we have witnessed from Ferrari, especially in 02 is (I mean hopefully was) an embarassment to the sport.

[TeddyG]

Originally posted by Kirk
Once again, you miss the point. Senna was not told from day one that he was there to support Prost. Yes Prost was #1 driver when he arrived but Senna was allowed to race him (otherwise he would have abstained from going there at all I'm sure, same as most of todays top drivers would do) ... And there is little doubt that those two provided the best spectacle of team rivalry ever. F1 (or should I say Ferrari) need to return to that. And frankly the BS we have witnessed from Ferrari, especially in 02 is (I mean hopefully was) an embarassment to the sport.

Well said Kirk! Without Ferrari's #1 driver policy fans could have been treated to at least some excitment in 2001, 2002 and now possibly 2004. Although I don't think Rubens is the one who can challenge Shumi, no other driver that has any self respect for himself would take on such a blatent #2 role in an F1 team. As a result Shumi will never have a teammate who can really challenge him, I've always felt its a shame and it will take something away from his legacy.

[TeddyG]

However on that note I'm not all that bothered since if another borefest like 2002 occurs, and Shumi wins yet another title (I feel sleepy just saying it) it really only makes the likelihood even greater that one of the team principles will go out and bring back the last active driver who beat Shumi in a fair fight....yes folks its Jacques Villeneuve!

I also don't care if its another 2002 borefest because with JV out I won't bother to watch many of the races...however I do feel sorry for those that do

Perhaps with a large enough outcry from the fans F1 might actually make some changes (like less driver aids!) that could liven up the show a bit. Until they do I'm afraid 2002 like seasons could be seen more often.

[Glen]

The F2002 wasn't by far the best car because of driver aids though, was it? What you are suggesting is that driver aids contribute to the predictable situation - but that clearly makes no sense because what would have been the outcome in 2002 without driver aids? The same - best driver in best car wins. Many may regret not seeing out-and-out fighting between the red cars, especially in 2002, but few would go so far as to claim that Rubens could have won that battle.

[1200Datto27]

TeddyG, get real, jv does not deserve a seat, his ONLY wdc was "won" in a highly superior car, and he was lucky to even do that. He is not even a good driver, if he was BAR with all of the money that the got from BAT should have beeb a lot more sucessful.

[Adam43]

Shall we keep this thread to Ferrari and how they are to 'blame' I'm hope by suggesting this I am not ruining what would turn into an interesting discussion

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Glen
The F2002 wasn't by far the best car because of driver aids though, was it? What you are suggesting is that driver aids contribute to the predictable situation - but that clearly makes no sense because what would have been the outcome in 2002 without driver aids?

I would scrap driver aids tomorrow, but Glen is right it wasn't the aids that made it predictable in 2002. It was Ferrari's dominance and, as been said before here, Williams, McLaren and the rest are to blame for that.

[krt917]

Absolutely Adam. In fact, getting rid of driver aids might make Schuey wins even more likely as it would increase that gap between the great (eg. Schuey) and the very good. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but I think that some would.

[Super Tourer]

We've only had one race to judge things, as has been pointed out.

But....two surprising factors are that McLaren have apparently turned out two turkey's in a row, and despite Patrick Head's assertion that early season form hurt their championship prospects last year, they appear to be lacking something out of the box as well.

If we are to apportion blame, you can't blame Ferrari for being too good, you have to 'blame' the opposition for not currently being good enough.

[TeddyG]

Originally posted by Glen
The F2002 wasn't by far the best car because of driver aids though, was it? What you are suggesting is that driver aids contribute to the predictable situation - but that clearly makes no sense because what would have been the outcome in 2002 without driver aids? The same - best driver in best car wins. Many may regret not seeing out-and-out fighting between the red cars, especially in 2002, but few would go so far as to claim that Rubens could have won that battle.

Jessums I didn't say I thought the outcome would have been different, I said that a move towards that direction could "liven up the show a bit" simply because there would be more chance for driver errors across the feild, leading to more spins, missed gear changes, etc. which in turn would lead to more overtaking abilities, etc.

What I was trying to say is that 2002-like borefests will continue to occur unless F1 makes some kind of move to make the racing more exciting "across the board" so that even when you have a dominant team like Ferrari, fans can still get excited about watching races. I also think a Ferrari that allowed its drivers to race would help as well.

I would never say that I think Rubens could ever beat Shumi even if he were allowed to race him. But the point is that he isn't allowed to race him and as a result any quality driver who might be able to challenge Shumi will never accept such a blatent #2 role. But Rubens seems to love it, which is why Ferrari keep signing him because he knows how it works now and won't complain about his #2 status. (I think he learned his lesson after Austria 2001)

[Glen]

I honestly don't think that losing TC will give you what you want there, TeddyG. The consistent difference in performance in the cars is what puts space between them on the track, and the extreme high quality of the driving will mean that those gaps will tend to stay more or less the same. I don't believe that there are any drivers in the top teams that would suffer without TC, and certainly not the Ferrari drivers who are both first class.

A lacklustre Rubens would never keep his job - he needs to perform every weekend, and I'm sure he goes just as fast as he can virtually all the time. The times that Rubens is required to pull over or hold station are very few and far between, btw - to hear most people you'd think that he just follows in Michael's wheeltracks at all times, which is complete tosh.

[TeddyG]

Well I mean you either believe that Michael and Rubens are allowed to race wheel to wheel or you don't. From past events I believe that Rubens realises what the deal is and that he is and always will be #2 while at Ferrari.

Like I said I don't think Rubens could beat Michael even if they were allowed to race. What I am saying is that most drivers can see how Ferrari operates and most likely would not take the 2nd seat with Shumi since they know what that entails. Because of this I don't think Shumi will ever have a teammate that can challenge him. Now if Shumi were at Williams maybe we could see some in team action!

On the TC issue, I'm not saying just TC but other electronic aids as well, how bout going back to a clutch and gear lever! That would be awesome. The point I am trying to make is to give more of the ability to win races back to the drivers. I think if now its 80% car and 20% driver, then the removal of driver aids might be able to take it down to at least 70% car and 30% driver. The way F1 has always been set up I doubt we will ever see a 50-50 split and nor do I think F1 needs to go that far, or else we just have ourselves another NASCAR or whatever. But I do feel at the moment too much depends on the car, I think some small changes that could put just a bit more in the drivers hands would be great for F1, especially in the dull one team domination seasons.

[Adam43]

I don't think you can really think of the driver aids in the 80-20 or 70-30 way. The advantage of drvier aids is more to stop mistakes rather than increase performance (although it does do this a little). Hence removing them will not particulary mean a driver can make up that extra 10% (or whatever), rather a poorer driver is more likely to make a mistake that would lose him a position (or the race). Which is still a very good reason IMHO. Removing aids makes the sport more human IMHO, and the main way we'd see this is by an increase in mistakes (which is a human trait).

Overall though I don't think Ferrari will suffer or the gap to Ferrari will change much with or without aids.

I'd rather they were got rid of though

[Gt_R]

(1)Quote :"Glen is right it wasn't the aids that made it predictable in 2002."

Agreed! I mean, it's real dumb if we now look back at what the critics said PRIOR to TC being made legal .. remember all those accusations of how Ferrari cheats with TC when it's banned, how Ferrari would be trounced by Mclaren/Williams to the dust when TC is legalised... it didn't happen, and the critics look for some new trash to throw.. Really just shows the desperation.

(2)Quote TedG:"Jessums I didn't say I thought the outcome would have been different, I said that a move towards that direction could "liven up the show a bit" simply because there would be more chance for driver errors ..."

Err...JV had trouble even with TC on...let's not add to that poor man's problems shall we?

(3)As for the Ruben/Michael relationship, frankly the whole thing is overblown.

The reason why people keep insisting on "teammates NOT ALLOWED to race MS" comes from Herbert's complaints, and subsequently a few incidents...which really is ALOT to back up those accusations...NOT.

When Ferrari signed MS in 96, i won't be the least surprised if Webber insisted that Ferrari give MS star-treatment, afterall Ferrari needed MS then and Webber would be dumb not to capitalise on the situation. MS is signed to bring WDCs back to Ferrari at all cost, and so, it'd be helpful that the teammate doesn't spoil the show.

As more and more success comes in, the significance of number 1 status reduces. And let's be honest, hands up to those who saw the "contract" that dictates RB cannot race MS.

Ferrari had clarified before that in the event that RB Irvine outperforms MS and showed to be the clear better driver of the 2, Ferrari would back that driver. However, it NEVER happened, and Ferrari had been consistent to that policy.

Anyway, how many times have RB gave in to MS? Please don't make it sound as if the 2002 WDC is a gift to MS, because it's not.

And funny that a JV fan complains about such policy when JV actually benefits the same status at BAR at his own insistence. (Zonta did come out to say that JV insist on having the spare car,etc, and JV had first use on new parts/engines)

And is it Renault who screwed up Wurz and gave Fisi (or is it Button?) the better car/engine too? Why don't we harp on it too?

Just from those two examples above, RB would actually feel relieved that at least he had equal cars to compete with and not settle for secondary cars. I'd rather be partnering MS than partner JV in those situations,with all my pride intact.

(4)Quote TG:"Shumi wins yet another title (I feel sleepy just saying it)"

Perhaps, you feel sleepy this year because F1 is so much more peaceful after the departure of a loudspeaker.

Peace

Frankly, if Ferrari/MS fans bother to go dig out everything of other teams to counter-argue, many teams and their respective fans would actually start to feel the shame. Are we here to enjoy F1 or to weep over it?

[006_007]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
I don't think you can really think of the driver aids in the 80-20 or 70-30 way. The advantage of drvier aids is more to stop mistakes rather than increase performance (although it does do this a little). Hence removing them will not particulary mean a driver can make up that extra 10% (or whatever), rather a poorer driver is more likely to make a mistake that would lose him a position (or the race). Which is still a very good reason IMHO. Removing aids makes the sport more human IMHO, and the main way we'd see this is by an increase in mistakes (which is a human trait).

Overall though I don't think Ferrari will suffer or the gap to Ferrari will change much with or without aids.

I'd rather they were got rid of though

Agreed, the Ferrari is just flat our a superior car. As far as banning driver aids, part of the reason I watch F1 is to witness the most technologically advanced cars available. If I wanted to watch cars that were simple I would watch NASCAR.

TJ

[TeddyG]

Originally posted by Gt_R


Err...JV had trouble even with TC on...let's not add to that poor man's problems shall we?

That's flamebait and should be removed. Let's try to keep the discussion more focused on the topic okay? btw the title is "blame Ferrari" not "blame Villeneuve" try to keep your self under control.

Originally posted by Gt_R

MS is signed to bring WDCs back to Ferrari at all cost, and so, it'd be helpful that the teammate doesn't spoil the show.

Since when is a teammate winning "spoiling the show" isn't it just as beneficial for the team no matter which driver wins? That's the policy at Williams, why not at Ferrari?

Originally posted by Gt_R

And let's be honest, hands up to those who saw the "contract" that dictates RB cannot race MS.

Rigggght because the ordinary public is granted access to private and confidential contracts everyday right? People don't need to see a contract, actions like that in Austria were enough proof for most as to Ferrari's driver policy.

Originally posted by Gt_R

Ferrari had clarified before that in the event that RB Irvine outperforms MS and showed to be the clear better driver of the 2, Ferrari would back that driver. However, it NEVER happened, and Ferrari had been consistent to that policy.
Anyway, how many times have RB gave in to MS? Please don't make it sound as if the 2002 WDC is a gift to MS, because it's not.

Hmmmm what was Austria? Like the fifth race of the season that year when they made Rubens pull over? Nice to know that he had a full four races to prove himself Ferrari #1 for that year, especially when they were so dominant anyways

Besides I never said that I thought Rubens could ever beat MS, the point is that a driver who might be able to beat him would never sign with the team because they know that Shumi will always be #1. And also Ferrari isn't inclined to go out and search for anyone who could challenge Shumi because they have a perfect #2 in Rubens. (I always burst out laughing when Rubens is in the press conference with that huge #2 written on the front of his cap! I can't help but think he's making some kind of cry out for help with that gesture)

I don't recall any complaints from Panis or Button stating that JV got preferrential treatment do you? Or anyone stating that they wouldn't want to drive for Williams, McLaren, Renault or any other team for that matter because they were afraid they wouldn't get equal treatment. However many drivers have said this about Ferrari while Shumi is still there.

Originally posted by Gt_R

And funny that a JV fan complains about such policy when JV actually benefits the same status at BAR at his own insistence. (Zonta did come out to say that JV insist on having the spare car,etc, and JV had first use on new parts/engines)

Well did you yourself not say that perhaps in the early years when their are limited resources that a team should give its best parts (if it only has enough for one car) to its most proven driver? Perhaps Zonta did recieve unfair treatment but that was BAR's first year was it not, and their resources were spread incredibly thin, I don't think even JV finished many races.
Like I said I don't recall Panis or Button complaining that they weren't getting equal treatment once BAR had gotten somewhat on their feet.

Originally posted by Gt_R

I'd rather be partnering MS than partner JV in those situations,with all my pride intact.

Yeah Rubens sure kept a lot of pride while weeping in the press conference after the Austrian GP right?

Originally posted by Gt_R


Perhaps, you feel sleepy this year because F1 is so much more peaceful after the departure of a loudspeaker.

So I like drivers with some personality and I do feel that characters do make F1 more enjoyable? What's wrong with that?

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Err...JV had trouble even with TC on...let's not add to that poor man's problems shall we?

Uhm,... what does this have to do with Ferrari?

[Knowlesy]

Funny. Thought this was the Ferrari thread.

Damn mouse.
*shakes mouse*

[ASCII Man]

That's my shoe you're shaking.
I would like it back now...

[Knowlesy]

You threw it at me earlier.

[ASCII Man]

Yes, uhm... can i have it back please?