LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[spider]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Are you suggesting that we should stop caring about the sport we love?

Ooo, good idea

It's more that in an industry like this, where there's a lot of money at stake and where that money flows can be controlled better than most sports / businesses, it can't be a massive shock when things like this happen.

Whilst we keep caring about the sport and turning up / watching the races / wanting to drive the cars, it will always be like this.

Trust me I'm 100% not happy about it - and I love LMP2, so hate these rule changes, but...I've seen this happen so many times now it's just a nod and a 'meh' reaction from me...

[littleman]

It's pretty clear the vast majority of contributors to this thread are not too keen on the new 2017 P2 regs.

However, in reality I don't think it will be that much different to this season. Take Le Mans this year for example, for many, the only race that truly matters.

There were 19 LMP2 cars entered, of those:
12 were chassis from Oreca and Oak and 14 of the engines were the Nissan V8.
Not much variety there I think you'll agree !?

Apart from the above manufacturer's, I'm guessing only the Gibson and Morgan chassis were available at the cost capped price.

The Dome and SMP BR cars most certainly cost an awful lot more........and weren't very competitive either. Replace the above 4 with Dallara & Riley and what's the pronlem?

[Ospi]

For me it's about who and I can see dallara producing and unbeatable package which will inevitably lead to a one brand series. The aco will be too stubborn to prevent it happening.

That being said, there are quite a lot of orders for the 05, how much it will need to be altered for 2017 is yet to be seen though but hopefully not a great deal so that teams continue with the chassis.

Costs are also not going to come down, another blow.

For me it's more a case of, it's not broken so why change it?

[littleman]

To the best of my knowledge though,the problem with the current regs is it doesn't prohibit a mega rich team owner from spending as much as they like on developing their very own LMP2 car. Maybe even get Porsche to do it for you!

For example, someone could spend £50million having the "ultimate" P2 car produced and I don't think there's anything in place to stop them from doing just that. They may have to sell other cars at the capped price but if you're a billionaire (and probably Russian!),then who cares.Alternatively, once you've achieved your goals, you could cease trading. I guess the Embassy venture was a little along these lines.

If you're desperate enough to win Le Mans and the WEC title, it could be done.

[Rcz]

If P1 is like F1
Then I guess P2 will be like GP2 or future F2
And P3 will be like F3


So over time I really wouldn't be surprised if P2 became spec Dallaras. They would probably make GP2 and P2 share the same chassis. Be very afraid.

[Rodger Davies]

Pfft, if Dallara make an unbeatable chassis then in three years there will be another reduction in the numbers allowed to two and they'll be Riley (for the US) and Oreca.

Can't upset Hughes.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by littleman

There were 19 LMP2 cars entered, of those:
12 were chassis from Oreca and Oak and 14 of the engines were the Nissan V8.
Not much variety there I think you'll agree !?

At least there is variety. I imagine Riley are in this for selling to the US and doubt we'll see them in Europe and Dallara might be the same too.

So from the 6 chassis types we saw in Austria at the weekend (the quickest of which were Gibson and BR), we'll likely be down to two in 2017 onwards.

[J Jay]

There is a difference between a situation where one party has emerged as a dominant force and one where the rules mandate a small number of entrants.

For instance, look at tyre suppliers in LMP1 - another supplier could come in to challenge Michelin if they felt it necessary. The chance of this happening is slim to none given the huge amount of resources Michelin has put into their outfit but the potential is there if someone wants to try it.

It's the journey that matters, not just the destination. This is especially important for my interest in sportscar racing which is largely due to the technological freedom (and not just in LMP1-H). The end result might be the same but how we get there is just as important.

[littleman]

The more I think about the 2017 regs the more I like them.

Good quality P2 cars will be readily available at a very reasonable price.With the adoption of just one engine, the racing should be ultra competitive too.It might well encourage more entrants to join in.

Any professional,creative and well funded P2 team may well use this opportunity to move into the LMP1 privateer class....a very welcome concept.

With future Le Mans grids being expanded to accommodate 60 cars or more, I actually think everything's pointing towards a rosey future.

[Akrapovic]

The "Good quality P2 cars argument" only works if the current cars weren't. At the start of the ELMS race in Austria for a while, the first 2 cars were built by chassis makers who won't be allowed to make more. Even by the finish, 3 of the top 5 were not selected. Hard to argue that removing these cars will raise the quality.

And it isn't like the quality of the racing hasn't been amazing is it?

[Coach Ep]

You would almost start to think that the idea of a 'DP-ish' look to the new P2 regs (as a concept) was made up by Bill France who talked Hugh de Chauncac into bringing the whole thing up with the FIA/ACO who convincingly took the bait...!

[lms]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The "Good quality P2 cars argument" only works if the current cars weren't. At the start of the ELMS race in Austria for a while, the first 2 cars were built by chassis makers who won't be allowed to make more. Even by the finish, 3 of the top 5 were not selected. Hard to argue that removing these cars will raise the quality.

And it isn't like the quality of the racing hasn't been amazing is it?

this class is not lmpc.... ancient courage spyders shouldnt make up more than half the grid in p2.... they have to go. Now, if Ztyek would have come up with a coupe earlier....

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Can't upset Hughes.

Chic and cheerful up on Boulevard Hausmann here he goes. Down on Rue Saint-Honoré he courted couture at Palais Royale. And found the perfect outfits to bash the competition. Then he headed to the Golden Triangle. Where Montaigne meets Georges V. And luxury goods are the opiate of choice. C'est la vie! Thanks ACO.

I'm afraid Dallara and Oreca will take over the LMP2 show. Sorry, business. Onroak/Ligier and Riley/Multimatic will soon be past. Oh dear.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by lms

this class is not lmpc.... ancient courage spyders shouldnt make up more than half the grid in p2.... they have to go. Now, if Ztyek would have come up with a coupe earlier....

One of the cars I'm talking about is a brand new coupe.

[chernaudi]

I think that the proposed Zytek/Gibson LMP2 coupe will probably form the basis of a possible LMP1 privateer/customer car, now that Gibson stated that they never actually did submit a tender for the new LMP1 class.

All of the LMP2 coupes out there aside from the BR01 were designed on being based on LMP1 rules, namely crash regs. So for those cars, it's basically change the engine, reduce the body/wheel track width to 1900mm (Oreca has already done that with the 05 being basically a LMP2 spec version of the Rebellion R-One LMP1), take out ballast and job done.

The problem with the BR01 I don't think is not meeting LMP1 crash standards unless I missed something. It's biggest problem as far as an LMP1 conversion is that was designed to be ballasted to 900kg. That was a design aim and Cantone wasn't aiming at having to ballast it up to only 850kg or less, or to 870kg for a hybrid equipped LMP1.

Weight reduction to LMP1 specs would probably drive a major redesign.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by J Jay

There is a difference between a situation where one party has emerged as a dominant force and one where the rules mandate a small number of entrants.

For instance, look at tyre suppliers in LMP1 - another supplier could come in to challenge Michelin if they felt it necessary. The chance of this happening is slim to none given the huge amount of resources Michelin has put into their outfit but the potential is there if someone wants to try it.

It's the journey that matters, not just the destination. This is especially important for my interest in sportscar racing which is largely due to the technological freedom (and not just in LMP1-H). The end result might be the same but how we get there is just as important.

^ That.

[BTCC 318d]

I love the way everyone assumes that Dallara will instantly be unbeatable; that one manufacturer will outpace them all.

The current regs allow for that - but it doesn't happen. Last year, the Ligier looked quick, but was beaten by the (very old) Zytek. This year, Orecas 05 won the day - but not by loads. The second in class? The revised old Zytek.

If one chassis was clearly better, then you'd see it take over - just look at the order book for Ligiers that were new for this year. Thing is, it doesn't look to be massively quicker than the other chassis. will Dallara manage to blow everyone else into the weeds? I reckon not. They're a huge outfit, but the last time they designed a P class car was in what, 1999?

[chernaudi]

Dallara built the Toyota GT-One and all the Audi LMP1 cars until 2013 when YCom built the 2014/15 R18.

However, the last car that they designed for LMP racing themselves (the GT-One was designed by de Cortanze (don't kill me for the bad spelling) for TMG and Audi designed all their LMP cars--Dallara just built the chassis as a subcontractor) was their own LMP900 car that was designed in 2000.

[J Jay]

If anyone feels like they've missed out on the outrage or would like a refresher on the incredulity of the incoming changes, this week's Midweek Motorsport looks to be dedicated solely to debating the 2017 LMP2 regulations. In addition to the RLM regulars (including Jonny Palmer) there will be contributions from at least Graham Goodwin & Marshall Pruett.

[Deleted]

I stopped actively listening to MWM late 2013 I think, but this particular one I feel have to give a go

Hope they have some sweating ACO rep there with defence attorney giving comments

[joeb]

Originally Posted by J Jay

If anyone feels like they've missed out on the outrage or would like a refresher on the incredulity of the incoming changes, this week's Midweek Motorsport looks to be dedicated solely to debating the 2017 LMP2 regulations. In addition to the RLM regulars (including Jonny Palmer) there will be contributions from at least Graham Goodwin & Marshall Pruett.

Good, I was just starting to finally accept the changes, so a refresher to make me frustrated again is just what I need!

[Deleted]

Apart from Pruett (and maybe Palmer/Daman) they are ACO employees so they cannot get too harsh in words though.

[BullMan]

Strakka has their Gibson.



http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/s...tes-shakedown/

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Apart from Pruett (and maybe Palmer/Daman) they are ACO employees so they cannot get too harsh in words though.

I wouldn't be worried about that - Goodwin has already made his thoughts known on the 2017 regs in a recent MWM within the last month (I think?), and the only reason that was cut short was because they already had this special program in mind. Hindhaugh has held his tongue somewhat but that's understandable, and if there was ever a platform to broadcast some "angry logic" it will be this Wednesday.

[Deleted]

Yes, I think they are/have/will be more rightfully vocal about this than they were about say WEC paywall streaming, but still not quite to the same level they would be if they were talking about some F1 stupidity or whatever. Anyway I'm intrigued, should be good

Regarding the Strakka-Zytek, it must be the oldest car they've had since their previous Zytek, the GZ09S in 2009. Which in turn technically was the same base to this current 'Gibson' but less modified. And since all the evolutionary Zytek LMPs go back to as far the Reynard days, the roots of that car go older than Strakka's old DBR9 GT1