Who is the Greatest F1 driver of all time?

[BTCC frog]

Who is the Greatest F1 driver since the very first race in 1950?

[BTCC frog]

So I voted for Lewis Hamilton, for reasons that I have previously mentioned on the other poll. Although I think, on pure driving ability, Michael Schumacher was the greatest. But he is ruled out because of Jerez 1997. I think Hamilton has the raw speed and makes few enough mistakes. As I said, I don't want him as number one, because I think he has too many flaws to be the GOAT. But I think every other driver has more flaws, so I am going to have Hamilton as number one.

[BTCC frog]

Interesting to see that the previous version of this poll (from nearly 20 years ago!) voted Senna as the greatest. I wonder if we will have the same opinion 20 years later.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Interesting to see that the previous version of this poll (from nearly 20 years ago!) voted Senna as the greatest. I wonder if we will have the same opinion 20 years later.

Do you have a link to that to save me searching?

[Anyopenroad]

I voted for Hamilton.

For me he is on a three-man shortlist with Senna and Schumacher.

If I wanted a driver to drive one lap to save my life, I’d pick Senna. But he was too willing to drive rivals off the track, too unwilling to accept the right of others to even be on the same track. Exhilarating, inspiring, driven, awesome. But flawed.

If I wanted to build an entire team from scratch and make it great, I’d pick Schumacher. Re-invented what was expected of drivers physically, technically, mechanically. But...his numbers are inflated by having co-drivers not allowed to compete. And he had some awful cynical moments that diminished him.

If I wanted a driver to turn up race after race, year after year and all but guarantee that the car would go as fast as it could, never making mistakes, setting relentless standards of brilliance, I’d pick Hamilton. He pushes everyone around him to new standards of excellence. He breaks teammates with his intensity. He stands alone among his peers and for me, atop this awesome list.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Do you have a link to that to save me searching?

I just noticed it in the 'similar threads' section at the bottom of this thread.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Do you have a link to that to save me searching?

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12779 ????

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Interesting to see that the previous version of this poll (from nearly 20 years ago!) voted Senna as the greatest. I wonder if we will have the same opinion 20 years later.

For some interesting comparisons:

20 years ago:
1-Senna
2-Clark
3-Schumacher

Alternative 20 years ago:
1-Senna
2-Fangio
3-Schumacher

GOAT 2021:
1-Senna
2-Hamilton
3-Schumacher

The consistent winner is Senna, and Hamilton is the latest challenger.
Schumacher has appeared a few times, and the rest seem to be split between Fangio and Clark.

What will the 2041 GOAT discussion look like? Will Senna's rating decline with time like Fangio's appears to have done.

Outside of Hamilton, who on the current grid is a future GOAT contender?

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

For some interesting comparisons:

Outside of Hamilton, who on the current grid is a future GOAT contender?

Ten years ago, all the talk was about whether Vettel's achievements would one day surpass Schumacher's, and instead it was Hamilton that did, so while Verstappen seems like the logical choice, it could be somebody else. Leclerc, Norris and Russell all seem like future champions (although I once thought that about Ricciardo, Bottas and Hulkenberg), and one of them could end up being a future GOAT contender.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Ten years ago, all the talk was about whether Vettel's achievements would one day surpass Schumacher's, and instead it was Hamilton that did, so while Verstappen seems like the logical choice, it could be somebody else. Leclerc, Norris and Russell all seem like future champions (although I once thought that about Ricciardo, Bottas and Hulkenberg), and one of them could end up being a future GOAT contender.

I think when people made the Vettel comparison, aside from nationality they were also seeing similarities in career profiles.
Schumacher - 2/3 years rising to the top, and then after moving to Ferrari a period of dominance ('99 season excluded due to number of starts)
Vettel - 2 years rising to the top, and then after moving to Red Bull a period of dominance.

In comparison, Hamilton's career started at the top, but had a lull for five years, during which time it seemed he may not reach the top again.

This is why I think someone like Norris would be my proposal from the current grid to be a future GOAT contender. His career is being built from starting in the mid-field, and rising to the top.

[Peter Mallett]

Just a small point, with one or two exceptions all those listed are World Champions. Shouldn't it be any driver and if so what about Jackie Ickx, or John Surtees to name but two?

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Just a small point, with one or two exceptions all those listed are World Champions. Shouldn't it be any driver and if so what about Jackie Ickx, or John Surtees to name but two?

Well the maximum allowed is 64 options, but I thought it was too many to have 64 drivers in the poll. If you want to vote for Ickx or Surtees, just write as a comment,

I vote for ...

and everyone can just add it to a mental list, but I doubt very many people will vote for someone not on that list.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Who is the Greatest F1 driver since the very first race in 1950?

Interesting list you provide - and a few WDCs missing?

Fittipaldi - 2x WDC with different teams (including youngest ever at the time), CART title and 2x Indy500.

Hawthorn - 1st British WDC. 24h Le Mans winner.

Surtees - WDC and multiple successes on 2 wheels.

Keke Rosberg - WDC and father of a WDC.

Farina - 1st ever WDC.

Mario Andretti - Named the "Driver of the Century" by the Associated Press and RACER magazine, 2000.

Damon Hill - took a title in the midst of Schumacher's era.

Jacques Villeneuve - achieved a title in F1 (something Gilles did not).

There are cases to be made for any of these to be on the list ahead of some of the choices - so my vote would be for 'other'.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Interesting list you provide - and a few WDCs missing?

Fittipaldi - 2x WDC with different teams (including youngest ever at the time), CART title and 2x Indy500.

Hawthorn - 1st British WDC. 24h Le Mans winner.

Surtees - WDC and multiple successes on 2 wheels.

Keke Rosberg - WDC and father of a WDC.

Farina - 1st ever WDC.

Mario Andretti - Named the "Driver of the Century" by the Associated Press and RACER magazine, 2000.

Damon Hill - took a title in the midst of Schumacher's era.

Jacques Villeneuve - achieved a title in F1 (something Gilles did not).

There are cases to be made for any of these to be on the list ahead of some of the choices - so my vote would be for 'other'.

I originally had 64 drivers on the list, but decided that was too many and reduced it to 25. If your vote is for 'other' that must mean you have a particular driver in mind as the greatest. Unless you would vote for 'no opinion' which is fine too.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I originally had 64 drivers on the list, but decided that was too many and reduced it to 25. If your vote is for 'other' that must mean you have a particular driver in mind as the greatest. Unless you would vote for 'no opinion' which is fine too.

I'm between Fittipaldi for success, Surtees for talent and Jacques Villeneuve for style.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm between Fittipaldi for success, Surtees for talent and Jacques Villeneuve for style.

Style as in 'Baggy trousers'....... ?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I originally had 64 drivers on the list, but decided that was too many and reduced it to 25. If your vote is for 'other' that must mean you have a particular driver in mind as the greatest. Unless you would vote for 'no opinion' which is fine too.

Out of interest - what criteria did you decide to use to reduce the list?

The following was published in 2016, which differs quite a bit from your list:



Has Emerson Fittipaldi really gone from being in people's top ten 5 years ago to not being in the top 25 now?

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Out of interest - what criteria did you decide to use to reduce the list?

The following was published in 2016, which differs quite a bit from your list:



Has Emerson Fittipaldi really gone from being in people's top ten 5 years ago to not being in the top 25 now?

The criteria was simply who I thought people might vote for. Maybe Fittipaldi should be in there instead of Reutemann, but I didn’t expect people to vote for Fittipaldi. Apologies if you want to vote for him.

[coppice]

What on earth is Carlos Reutemann doing on the list? And our Nige was heroic on the day but come on , he was no Senna or Prost ,some days he wasn't even really a Mansell really... And heavens , juts how much of a besotted fan does one have to be to even consider Max Verstappen as a candidate. Isn't it a bit, y'know ... early to start thinking about accolades like that ?

As Grand Prix racing started in 1906 I will chuck Tazio Nuvolari's name into the ring . Along with that wonderful buccaneer , Clay Reggazoni , he looks just like an Italian racing driver should . And yes , Clay was technically Swiss , I know .

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by coppice

What on earth is Carlos Reutemann doing on the list? And our Nige was heroic on the day but come on , he was no Senna or Prost ,some days he wasn't even really a Mansell really... And heavens , juts how much of a besotted fan does one have to be to even consider Max Verstappen as a candidate. Isn't it a bit, y'know ... early to start thinking about accolades like that ?

As Grand Prix racing started in 1906 I will chuck Tazio Nuvolari's name into the ring . Along with that wonderful buccaneer , Clay Reggazoni , he looks just like an Italian racing driver should . And yes , Clay was technically Swiss , I know .

I thought these were the 25 drivers most likely to be voted for by someone. Clearly I should have had Fittipaldi instead of Reutemann, but I hadn't been expecting someone to vote for Fittipaldi, whereas I think I once saw someone on reddit suggest that Reutemann was the greatest. I think there might be someone who votes for Mansell or Verstappen, but realistically I think the only proper candidates are Hamilton, Schumacher, Fangio, Prost, Senna, Stewart and Clark.

And I was only counting Formula 1 since 1950, so Nuvolari was not included.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by coppice

What on earth is Carlos Reutemann doing on the list? And our Nige was heroic on the day but come on , he was no Senna or Prost ,some days he wasn't even really a Mansell really... And heavens , juts how much of a besotted fan does one have to be to even consider Max Verstappen as a candidate. Isn't it a bit, y'know ... early to start thinking about accolades like that ?

As Grand Prix racing started in 1906 I will chuck Tazio Nuvolari's name into the ring . Along with that wonderful buccaneer , Clay Reggazoni , he looks just like an Italian racing driver should . And yes , Clay was technically Swiss , I know .

This is the post I was looking for.

I'd put it to you that everyone is judged on their best, therefore Mansell is absolutely equal to Senna and Prost.

Alright, he didn't win either 86/87 titles. But he won the most races by double the next best. That has to count for something when chronic unreliability was actually reliable in those days?

He's like the Dutch team of the 70s. Didn't win the World Cup, but were still the best team

For whatever weaknesses you see in Mansell, I'd put it to you that despite being statistically better since, his 1992 season is the biggest clobbering any champ has won his title in F1 history?

There isn't a driver in motorsport history that, accounting for relative strengths/weaknesses, could beat him in a FW14B/15C.

FW14b/15C is the zenith of F, and he's a contributor to it. Unlike Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton, who've cashed in with relatively less impressive cars.

Best Pom on ovals. So good that if he was a yank, he'd be the best yank on ovals as well!

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Having said that, Prost is the best driver. Because overall, that's how you're supposed to drive racing car.

Not as good in the rain? Well, that's 1 in 6 races he misses out.

Not as fast in qualifying? Well, one lap requires a lower standard of driving and brings lesser drivers to the pack.

It doesn't matter as much.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

There isn't a driver in motorsport history that, accounting for relative strengths/weaknesses, could beat him in a FW14B/15C.

FW14b/15C is the zenith of F, and he's a contributor to it. Unlike Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton, who've cashed in with relatively less impressive cars.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Having said that, Prost is the best driver.

Reading your posts here - it comes across that you rate Mansell as being no higher than 5th best of all time (which is fine if that is where you rate him)?

You have said more than once that Prost is the best - so I take it you would place him #1 on any list?

You also refer to Vettel, Schumacher and Hamilton as cashing in with cars that were less impressive (and from that I take it as being less dominant compared to their competition). Which ultimately means that Mansell's greatness can be attributed to Patrick Head, Paddy Lowe, Adrian Newey and Damon Hill.

As Patrick Head himself describes the time:
'Nigel showed little interest in active ride in 1986 and ’87, when we ran the Honda engines with him and Nelson Piquet, and when he came back from Ferrari in ’91 he still wasn’t that interested until he heard about the lap times Damon Hill had been achieving in testing.'

Which - whilst does not detract from how good a driver/car pairing the FW14B/Mansell combination was - a lot of credit for Mansell's results in that one season must go to the designers and test driver.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

There isn't a driver in motorsport history that, accounting for relative strengths/weaknesses, could beat him in a FW14B/15C.

How can you possibly substantiate this?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

How can you possibly substantiate this?

I have to justify everything to you?

Here it's easy with some knowledge of the time.

Alain Prost is the best driver of all time. If he isn't, then who ever it is is only insignificantly better than him. That includes your superhero Hamilton and Jim Clark. Prost is the best barometer when comparing generations. Whatever he does, if it could be bettered, could not be much better.

In 93, with the benefit of 2 years development of the 15C (The car Mansell was supposed to drive in 92, but didn't bring it out because they did so well with the 14B), not having Mansell as team mate, but a green Damon Hill, he couldn't match Mansell stats or performance. In actual fact, the stats flatter Prost that year.

When Prost was beaten in 93, almost all the time he was genuinely beaten. In 92, with the possible exception of Canada, if it weren't for mechanical, non driving errors, Mansell would've won every race.

There's nothing Prost did in 93 that Mansell couldn't have done, and a number of things Mansell would've done that Prost didn't.

South Africa - Mansell would've beaten Prost off the line and been a munite up the road before Prost finally got past Senna.

Brazil - Mansell would not have ended up on the beach like Prost did and would've won.

Donington - Mansell would not have been flapping about with the tyres in changing conditions, he'd have been far more assertive and confident in the car. Senna would've put in one of the best drives of his career and been 30secs behind Mansell.

Monaco -Idk what happened at the start line for Prost, but it would not have happened with Mansell. Mansell wins.

The problem every driver in the history of motorsport has with the 14b/15C, is that they're driving a car intrinsically suited to Mansell. Its not a "neutral car". It's a similar problem Bottas has at MB, it's car for Hamilton to drive. At that level, it's a wild difference.

What on earth is any other driver going to do that's better than Prost in the 15C? Senna beat him to a championship scoring fewer points, so you can objectively scratch him off.