[Official] Qatar Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 22

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by wnut

Great post Taxi.

"I suspect such a system would not be legal, but I would not know on the basis of what technical regulation." Taxi 645

Difficult to argue that the set up isn't wholly or solely for aerodynamic benefit, moveable aerodynamic aid?

Thank you. The system Mercedes uses is deemed legal and that is acknowledged by Red Bull (prolly all teams are using it to a certain degree, but perhaps not as much as Mercedes with their low rake design that allows the diffuser stall. I suspect that the Gary Anderson explanation of the system is right since we do see very significant changes in the system effectiveness across the different tracks. Which fit's much more with the limited envelope of the first system.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I am pretty certain that if you are aware of the system that Mercedes have introduced and there is a Youtube video of it, and it was not legal then not only would Red Bull have protested it, or at least have asked the technical team at the FIA to clarify the legality, but so would have most other teams as well.

Agreed. The only nuance on that I could imagine would be if other team suspect Mercedes to use the first system like themselves, but is actually using the much more effective second system. I don't think that is very likely.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I can't find the reference right now, but I recall reading somewhere that the design is legal because it 'only acts on the external forces applied to the car'.

Yes, and no aerodynamic surface is moving in relation to the rest of the car.


Personally I'm in favour of cars that can adapt between high downforce in the corners and lower downforce/drag on the straight as long as it is a passive system (not electronics or driver triggered) and it maintains safe and predictable driving characteristics.

I'm in favour of it for several reasons:
1 It is more efficient (I find dragging barn doors through the air at 200mph a ridiculous idea from a technical point of view).
2 High efficiency, means less fuel, which means lighter cars.
3 It is innovation.
4 It gives the engineers more to do in an era where the rest of the aerodynamics is more prescribed.
5 You can avoid this endless discussion of "bending wings". I've never heard a single good argument why that should not be allowed.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I have a question regarding the yellow flags during Qualifying. Don't all groan at once. Was the yellow flag, double or single, waived just at Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz or was it waived at other drivers as well?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Personally I'm in favour of cars that can adapt between high downforce in the corners and lower downforce/drag on the straight as long as it is a passive system (not electronics or driver triggered) and it maintains safe and predictable driving characteristics.

I'm in favour of it for several reasons:
1 It is more efficient (I find dragging barn doors through the air at 200mph a ridiculous idea from a technical point of view).
2 High efficiency, means less fuel, which means lighter cars.
3 It is innovation.
4 It gives the engineers more to do in an era where the rest of the aerodynamics is more prescribed.
5 You can avoid this endless discussion of "bending wings". I've never heard a single good argument why that should not be allowed.

I like what you are saying here. But I am slightly different in that I think electronic versions of this (vs strictly mechanical) should be allowed. It is a broken record if you look at my posts in total, but I think they should allow active suspension (but using standard and limited parts). This concept of a camming action via the third/heave spring to stall the diffuser. Could easily be achieved via active suspension. It could either be automatic or driver initiated (depending upon how easy/complicated we want to make it for the driver)

While I am a proponent of active suspension, I also have no problem with a more formalized active aero setup. As F1 struggles to continue to be able to set itself a step above other series (and we have seen how expensive that can be if that differentiation is via expensive and complex power units), I think active suspension and aero could be the ticket to do that in the future.

Richard

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I have a question regarding the yellow flags during Qualifying. Don't all groan at once. Was the yellow flag, double or single, waived just at Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz or was it waived at other drivers as well?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhGOTB_GevY

Basically it was a mixture. tbh should have been double waved all the way through, however it was a developing situation with a slow car then grinding to a halt, so in real time its actually quite a tricky situation for marshals to assess.

Ive been in this situation before where a slow moving car should be a white flag, which then changes to a yellow, but because of the location of marshal posts, if the car stops just before or after the post it can change the flag youre using. Although if in doubt, over do it....noone (other that horner) will criticise you for being extra cautious where safety is concerned.

[Adam43]

And if you are the driver you obey it, you do not overule the marshals.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I like what you are saying here. But I am slightly different in that I think electronic versions of this (vs strictly mechanical) should be allowed. It is a broken record if you look at my posts in total, but I think they should allow active suspension (but using standard and limited parts). This concept of a camming action via the third/heave spring to stall the diffuser. Could easily be achieved via active suspension. It could either be automatic or driver initiated (depending upon how easy/complicated we want to make it for the driver)

While I am a proponent of active suspension, I also have no problem with a more formalized active aero setup. As F1 struggles to continue to be able to set itself a step above other series (and we have seen how expensive that can be if that differentiation is via expensive and complex power units), I think active suspension and aero could be the ticket to do that in the future.

Richard

I don't like too much electronics, because I like the idea of the driver taking a car and work with it's characteristics and strong and weak points and work with it on different tracks and through different corners.


If you have the electronics being so effective, what is there for driver to do but point the car in the right direction? I know this is a strong exaggeration, but still. I rather have the driver handling a bump in the corner than the predetermined algorithms of a computer controlled suspension. I prefer that door/sliding slope to stay firmly shut.


One of the reasons why I dislike the current PU is that you can't properly follow what going on form the outside. What is the charge state, how much power does it driver have at his disposal. The source of the performance then becomes a bit distant and vague let's say.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhGOTB_GevY

Basically it was a mixture. tbh should have been double waved all the way through, however it was a developing situation with a slow car then grinding to a halt, so in real time its actually quite a tricky situation for marshals to assess.

Ive been in this situation before where a slow moving car should be a white flag, which then changes to a yellow, but because of the location of marshal posts, if the car stops just before or after the post it can change the flag youre using. Although if in doubt, over do it....noone (other that horner) will criticise you for being extra cautious where safety is concerned.

Thanks for that. Very interesting to watch. So there were other drivers involved. Those captions appear to correspond with the footage and most of those captions say, nothing on the boards, nothing on the dash and no waived flags, though there a couple that say ''looks like maybe single or double'' in brackets/parentheses. I presume Verstappen got a double yellow because he was the first into zone?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Adam43

And if you are the driver you obey it, you do not overule the marshals.

100% correct.

Horner can say the situation was confusing, but that doesnt cut it.

When it boils down to it, you have a driver, in control of the car who has to drive the car unaided and must assess the track conditions with his own eyes.

Basically, Max needs to spot the flags and act accordingly, he didnt and neither did some others so they got penalised.

Other drivers DID react accordingly and slowed down, thus avoiding a penalty.

All the other bumph over flashing lights, radio messages or lights on the dashboard are irrelivant, because the flag is what counts.

Basically i think drivers have become too reliant on these other things and have taken their eye off the ball where flags are concerned.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Thanks for that. Very interesting to watch. So there were other drivers involved. Those captions appear to correspond with the footage and most of those captions say, nothing on the boards, nothing on the dash and no waived flags, though there a couple that say ''looks like maybe single or double'' in brackets/parentheses. I presume Verstappen got a double yellow because he was the first into zone?

Actually he was after alonso and Vettel.

Alonso passed Gasly as he was slowing, car is still travelling slowly at this point towards its final resting place so no boards but he took it on himself to slow, becuase there was a danger on track so aired on the side of caution.

Vettel then recived a flashing light so slowed down because it was when gasly had ground to a halt

Norris then recieved the flashing board, but it went out as he approached because gasly had stopped just after the next marshal point, i assume they were just getting the yellow flags out at this point

Verstappen was the first driver to recieve double yellows as Gaslys car had stopped so they were appropriately being waved.

Bottas and Sainz then passed single waved yellows. Im not personally sure why it was downgraded from a double waved to single waved, but i suspect becuase of the positioning of the car it was deemed not to be a double waved incident, however in reality whether its double or single, you still need to slow down.


I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in race control. Vettel sarcasticly commented that he thinks the yellow light was turned off because Max was coming....they are controlled by race control and not the marshals IIRC, however the marshals were still waving the yellow flags becuase they could see on the ground that there was still a danger on circuit. So, did race control turn off the lights because they thought the danger had passed, or was vettel correct? Either way, not a fine example from race control....luckily the marshals did things correctly

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I have a question regarding the yellow flags during Qualifying. Don't all groan at once. Was the yellow flag, double or single, waived just at Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz or was it waived at other drivers as well?

The order of events (from reviewing video)

Gasly slows - yellow flag sector 18
Clear
Chequered flag
Yellow flag sector 20
Ocon crosses the line (passed the marshal post before flag shown)
Then, the following drivers pass the yellow flag.
Vettel - slowed
Norris - slowed
Alonso - slowed
Bottas -didn't slow
Sainz - slowed (but only marginally, and some debate over whether this was from being slow out of the corner)
Flag changes to double yellow
Verstappen - didn't slow

And for those querying the 'green light' on the right hand edge of the track. It is in the pitlane, not trackside and is not visible from drivers'-eye level.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The order of events (from reviewing video)

Gasly slows - yellow flag sector 18
Clear
Chequered flag
Yellow flag sector 20
Ocon crosses the line (passed the marshal post before flag shown)
Then, the following drivers pass the yellow flag.
Vettel - slowed
Norris - slowed
Alonso - slowed
Bottas -didn't slow
Sainz - slowed (but only marginally, and some debate over whether this was from being slow out of the corner)
Flag changes to double yellow
Verstappen - didn't slow

And for those querying the 'green light' on the right hand edge of the track. It is in the pitlane, not trackside and is not visible from drivers'-eye level.

Is that the chronological order of events, because I thought Bottas and Sainz then went past after Verstappen and the flag had been downgraded from double to single?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Is that the chronological order of events, because I thought Bottas and Sainz then went past after Verstappen and the flag had been downgraded from double to single?

My bad, so max was last, so the single yellow must have been UPGRADED to a double yellow after Bottas/ Sainz, which would actually make sense because it would usually be a slowing car is white, stopped as a single then upgraded to double yellow. as i said above, a developing situation.

Looking at Youtube the order of drivers on the tracker is

Hamilton
Gasly
Tsunoda
Ocon
Vettel
Norris
Alonso
Bottas
Sainz
Verstappen

[steve_r]

I thought that Verstappen was last on track.

Someone will know...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Is that the chronological order of events, because I thought Bottas and Sainz then went past after Verstappen and the flag had been downgraded from double to single?

From this video - https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...892674957.html

The flag was elevated from single to double

[porsche962fan]

next round Max can be crowned champion if Lewis DNF and Max gets on podium

[bjohnsonsmith]

Ignore.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

From this video - https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...892674957.html

The flag was elevated from single to double

Thanks for that.



In post #250 you say: ''And for those querying the 'green light' on the right hand edge of the track. It is in the pitlane, not trackside and is not visible from drivers'-eye level. ''

Looking at those images, it looks like the yellow flag is more or less on the same level as the pitlane light.

This is the view from Sainz' aitbox cam.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In post #250 you say: ''And for those querying the 'green light' on the right hand edge of the track. It is in the pitlane, not trackside and is not visible from drivers'-eye level. ''

Looking at those images, it looks like the yellow flag is more or less on the same level as the pitlane light.

This is the view from Sainz' aitbox cam.

It's difficult to explain without an eye-level onboard.
From the drivers' eye, the panel in the pitlane is obscured by the advertising hoarding / pit wall. The marshals' post, however, extends beyond the wall towards the live circuit. If you open up the Verstappen image, you can see that the lower of the two yellow flags is in front of the advertising (from the driver's perspective).



The circuit map shows that there are 26 Marshal posts at Losail, but only 20 Marshal Light panels. When people have referred to the light panel (being on/off) on the outside of the track, this is in the proximity of Marshal Post 25. The yellow flags that were not adhered to were at Marshal Post 26. There is no Light Panel at this point, it is not one of the mini-sectors that race control relay messages in relation to either.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It's difficult to explain without an eye-level onboard.
From the drivers' eye, the panel in the pitlane is obscured by the advertising hoarding / pit wall. The marshals' post, however, extends beyond the wall towards the live circuit. If you open up the Verstappen image, you can see that the lower of the two yellow flags is in front of the advertising (from the driver's perspective).



The circuit map shows that there are 26 Marshal posts at Losail, but only 20 Marshal Light panels. When people have referred to the light panel (being on/off) on the outside of the track, this is in the proximity of Marshal Post 25. The yellow flags that were not adhered to were at Marshal Post 26. There is no Light Panel at this point, it is not one of the mini-sectors that race control relay messages in relation to either.

I see that but there is also the sign for the beginning of DRS zone, just before the Marshal's post and the image is not from the driver's perspective, but from the airbox cam. The driver is much lower.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I see that but there is also the sign for the beginning of DRS zone, just before the Marshal's post and the image is not from the driver's perspective, but from the airbox cam. The driver is much lower.

I'm not sure I'm explainiong this well - and we might be pushing the same point.

The yellow flags and DRS sign are all track-side of any furniture and so visible from the drivers' perspective. The light panel in the pitlane is not track-side, and so (at least partially) obscured from the driver.
Attached is an image (in daylight) of the pitlane light panel. The shrouding is just visible.


Another interesting point I note (at least to me) - the number of Marshals' posts increased from 26 for FP1 to 44 before qualifying. I wonder if this was a factor in the race control messages and interaction with Marshals' posts?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not sure I'm explainiong this well - and we might be pushing the same point.

The yellow flags and DRS sign are all track-side of any furniture and so visible from the drivers' perspective. The light panel in the pitlane is not track-side, and so (at least partially) obscured from the driver.
Attached is an image (in daylight) of the pitlane light panel. The shrouding is just visible.


Another interesting point I note (at least to me) - the number of Marshals' posts increased from 26 for FP1 to 44 before qualifying. I wonder if this was a factor in the race control messages and interaction with Marshals' posts?

I understand what you're saying about the pitlane light. However, the marshal's post is behind the track perimeter barrier and the DRS sign is trackside and before the marshal's post.

I think the DRS sign might obscure the marshal's post enough, making it difficult to see the flags, which may explain why both Bottas and Verstappen said they couldn't see any flags. Their perspective is much lower than the airbox cam.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I understand what you're saying about the pitlane light. However, the marshal's post is behind the track perimeter barrier and the DRS sign is trackside and before the marshal's post.

I think the DRS sign might obscure the marshal's post enough, making it difficult to see the flags, which may explain why both Bottas and Verstappen said they couldn't see any flags. Their perspective is much lower than the airbox cam.

Ah - I understand now (I think). It would be interesting to see if that obscuring occurred. However, I would have expected Red Bull to have produced evidence of that in Max's defence.

There is also the matter of angle - so if the DRS sign obscures at one point, then before and after that point the angle of sight is different.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Ah - I understand now (I think). It would be interesting to see if that obscuring occurred. However, I would have expected Red Bull to have produced evidence of that in Max's defence.

There is also the matter of angle - so if the DRS sign obscures at one point, then before and after that point the angle of sight is different.

True.


Unfortunately without a helmet cam or visor cam that remains an unknown, there is only the footage from the airbox cam.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Basically i think drivers have become too reliant on these other things and have taken their eye off the ball where flags are concerned.

Yes I think that is a good point there. I also think frequent SCs and VSCs mean some drivers don’t see yellow flags as anything worth slowing down for anymore

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes I think that is a good point there. I also think frequent SCs and VSCs mean some drivers don’t see yellow flags as anything worth slowing down for anymore

I think that the light panels are generally reliable, and far more visible than the flags, especially in the dark, so the drivers generally just rely on the light panels and dashboard lights. They then get caught when the lights are not properly activated when a flag is thrown. If the lights are unreliable, perhaps the FIA should just pull the lights and rely on the flags alone.