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Old 28 Apr 2006, 09:02 (Ref:1596783)   #1
John Turner
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Originals v Replicas

We've touched on the issues of originality, 'bitsas', replicas and the FIA's attempt to address the issue with new sets of historic vehicle papers, in various threads, but I don't think we have discussed directly an issue that Doug Nye has raised in the latest (June) issue of Octane. He asks whether owners of racing cars are going to be prepared to race their valuable originals against the 'continuation' cars now being built by Lola, Chevron and others. These 'moderns' which will be provided with HTP papers and therefore eligible for historic events run by the FIA. He suggests that for other historic events the organising bodies will probably give preference to original cars but where they don't, the owners of original cars will simply stay away, to the detriment of the sport. The point he makes is that a modern replica, however faithfully it adheres to the original in appearance and componentry will be fresher, stronger and faster, and that since their value is far less that the original, they will be raced harder and with less concern for the occasional contact.

It seems to me that a separate class, or better still, separate races, if there are enough built, for the 'continuation' cars would maybe address this problem. We've seen races for replicas (Cobras come to mind) before if I recall correctly. Mind you whether there is room for additional 'historic' classes or races, is another matter. The upshot of the FIA 'clarification, however, is that in their book, a 'modern' car built to original spec. will be allowed to race in historic series! Where that leaves those 'bitsa' cars which have a dubious provenance but contain genuinely original parts, I don't know.

Interestingly, in the same mag, and in a separate piece, Nye highlights an act of vandalism perpetrated by the Italian courts. They ordered (and made sure it happened) the total destruction and meltdown of two 'replica' Maseratis despite the fact that these were of extremely high quality, but worst of all, they contained many original and rare parts, including an engine which was one of only 3 built and raced in the 1956 Mille Miglia. Sheer madness!

Last edited by John Turner; 28 Apr 2006 at 09:04.
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 09:34 (Ref:1596810)   #2
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That raises some interesting points John and I agree I don't see how this is going to work especially after seeing that stunning T70 at Brands the othre day.

That was a ridiculous act perpertrated in Italy as bad as destroying rare cars making rubbish movies like Dukes of Hazzard, madness. I wonder if that was the birdcage Maserati's built by an aquantance of mine. He copied it precisely from an original car and by all accounts it was indistinguisable from the original. Apparantly he was telling me a Japanese gentleman bought it years later for over a million pounds and he did not have the heart to tell him it was bogus but someone else may have done:-(.
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 09:59 (Ref:1596832)   #3
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
its an interesting issue and given the number of known fakes racing currently I dont see it making too much difference. In the BRDC Historic Sportscars series there are several "replicas" and it doesnt effect the quality of racing.

The fake snakes are totally different as they are fibre glass kit cars!!!
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 10:04 (Ref:1596841)   #4
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Originally Posted by John Turner
The point he makes is that a modern replica, however faithfully it adheres to the original in appearance and componentry will be fresher, stronger and faster, and that since their value is far less that the original, they will be raced harder and with less concern for the occasional contact.
I agree that a recreation will nearly always be faster but I have never quite understood the question of worrying about damage.
If you bend a faithfull replica surely it will cost the same to repair as an original, (I'm not talking about the type of replica I own which is only a "loose copy"). After all the parts will probably have to be hand fabricated and the labour costs would be similar or is there a premium put on working on original cars? So if you bent a £2m Dtype or a £150K Lynx or Dunford the costs to repair will be similar.
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It seems to me that a separate class, or better still, separate races, if there are enough built, for the 'continuation' cars would maybe address this problem. We've seen races for replicas (Cobras come to mind) before if I recall correctly. Mind you whether there is room for additional 'historic' classes or races, is another matter. The upshot of the FIA 'clarification, however, is that in their book, a 'modern' car built to original spec. will be allowed to race in historic series! Where that leaves those 'bitsa' cars which have a dubious provenance but contain genuinely original parts, I don't know.
This is a difficult area as there are still falling grids for thses types of cars.
I have recently been invited into a classic race series that at one time would only have original one marque cars, they then had to open up to all classics of the era to boost grids and have now made an invitation class for selected replicas as grids were waining once again.

There is of course the problem of snobbery which will always preclude certian replica cars from taking part

Last edited by Tim Falce; 28 Apr 2006 at 10:06.
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 13:18 (Ref:1596942)   #5
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The continuation cars should not be allowed to race IMHO end of story and lets hope the organisers don't permit them to do so. My fear is they will end up filtering in and potentially the floodgates will open as once one car has been allowed in, you can hardly stop the others. Should have stuck with the old system even if it wasn't perfect.
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 13:24 (Ref:1596944)   #6
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Equitable Solution?

Why not let the REPLICA cars race against the Historics?

Only to make things fair put on a seperate class, or classes, within the race for the replicas. You could even handicap the replicas by starting them all at the back of the grid and 30 seconds after the genuine cars. That way the Historics are given precedence over the Replicas and it would be unlikely that a replica would win the event.

This should also apply to the Cameron Millar 250Fs and any other 'pretend' racing car.

The FIA should issue two types of license (a) a true Historic, and (b) a Replica. Anyone caught passing a replica off as an Historic should have the Replica impounded and crushed just like the Italians have done! They should also face a 10 year ban on taking part plus a hefty fine. That way not only would the public see the difference but also potential buyers would be protected from fraud.
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 13:30 (Ref:1596949)   #7
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
so where does that leave cars that have original engines and the rest being of recent reconstruction (like certainly 2 D Types racing in the current BRDC Historic Championship)? One doesnt even have a chassis number (and to be fair the owner doesnt pass it off as an original) yet they both have run at Le Mans historic supprt races, Goodwood and the Championship as does a Ferrari amongst others....
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 13:33 (Ref:1596951)   #8
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Steve that is what should happen with the new papers. If you car is important enough to warrent the "gold" papers then it is clear its kosher - although at £1400 a set I would say that your car has to be worth in excess of £100 000 to justify the cost.
If a "replica" is built to FIA spec it will not have a speed advantage other a well developed original and therefore doesnt need to start at the back but maybe should run as an invitation class....
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 19:08 (Ref:1597119)   #9
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Blimey Steve thats harsh, would not want to appear in front of you if you were a judge. :-)
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 19:32 (Ref:1597129)   #10
John Turner
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And thank you to the person that has rated this thread 'terrible'; obviously not one of the people who have actually posted, here! Perhaps that person might have the courage of their conviction and explain why!
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 19:45 (Ref:1597134)   #11
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There you go John, I readdressed the balance, I think its a very good thread as it happens:-)
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 01:50 (Ref:1597293)   #12
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This is a very good thread, it has bought into the open a lot of un answered questions and fears held by historic competitors of all ilck!
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 09:36 (Ref:1597406)   #13
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If one owned an original Lola T70 I can see the attraction why they might buy a "new" Lola so that they can keep the original and very valuable car for the odd race (like Goodwood) and use the new car for less high profile races.

When I talked to the Chevron people at the Historic Show whilst admiring their new B16 I was told that they expect a great number of the new cars to be sold to owners of original B16's.

Personally I am in favour of new models getting FIA papers as with old racing cars originality is often rather limited. I remember talking to an owner of an original B19, which had very few parts that were original - probably only parts of the chassis. The rest of the car, bodywork, engine, gearbox etc was correct but modern.
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 11:01 (Ref:1597451)   #14
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So there are really three types of car? The originals, the replicas and the hybrids, which started life as originals, but have perforce had to maintained using replica parts. Or are there actually very few originals, except for those tucked away in museums and private collections?
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 11:32 (Ref:1597461)   #15
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Gil Abobeleira should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I don't normally post around here, but I think I should give you the insight of a "stranger".

Here in Portugal, the main attraction on the race tracks is the Historic Championship, for H76 cars and the like (the H65 are a minority around here). Cars like Ford Escorts BDA and Chevrons dominate the races (in their classes, that is).
There has been a long discussion about how legitimate and original are the Historic cars nowadays. For example, there are 3 (yes, three) Ford Escort BDA highly prepared (costs are around £100K or more ), with engines on the 280 bhp bracket and that can only run for 5 hours before a freshly rebuilt (a £8K job, I think, in England). And yes, these 3 Escorts are so much better than the original ones (even the 1975 Zakspeed examples). Yet, they are "original". And they clearly dominate the Porsche RSRs around here (something that didn't happen on the good ol' days).

What I'm trying to say is, how "original" are the current cars (not the "replicas") racing in Historics? Replicas can be better than an original car, but that's supposing that the original car has not been enhanced what-so-ever? Do you believe that? Does an original car race with the "original" parts? I'd think the answer is no. In that way, an original car has loads of "replica" parts, so, in essence, it's also a "replica".

More food for thught......

PS: I'm not trying say that historic races and their competitors because, they're so much better looking (and make better noises) than the stupid boxxy saloons that race nowadays in BTCC, WTCC and the like
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