[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Love the GT2 car offering, sadly I'll probably never see the cars in the flesh.

Sadly my Glickenhaus racing shirt didn't ship until last night so I won't be able to show off the colors this weekend trackside for The Mitty. But it will be there for Petit, and possibly a flag if you make one by then.

Hi
GT2 requires 25 cars. We have firm orders and deposits for more than that and will build them in 2020 so we’re good.
Our 2021 goal is as many as 200 so we can then start GT3.
Our LMP1 is a go after today’s meeting with ACO.
We will build 25 road Legal examples and start racing the WEC in 2020 and LeMans in 2021. The new rules are final.
Best

[AndrewCherry]

Well, at least there'll be one car there in 2021 guaranteed! I'm going to LM for the first time for my 40th birthday that year, so put on a good show!

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by AndrewCherry

Well, at least there'll be one car there in 2021 guaranteed! I'm going to LM for the first time for my 40th birthday that year, so put on a good show!

Others will confirm soon.
Official announcement in about 10 Days.

[AndrewCherry]

Yeah, I'll be following the news closely for the next two years. My goal when I was 20 was to be racing there rather than watching, but I'll settle for a good glamp and the karts I ended up racing instead!

Going to be fascinating to see what actually ends up being on the grid in two years - it's going to be either fantastic or a disaster is my current assumption.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Napolis

The new rules are final.

well, well, well...

[ApexTurtle]

Even though I knew that was coming I'm still disappointed. I held out hope for 'plan B'

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

Even though I knew that was coming I'm still disappointed. I held out hope for 'plan B'

'Twas always too good to come true

Bop shenanigans it is then

[andrewn7]

Originally Posted by Chiana

'Twas always too good to come true

Bop shenanigans it is then

It does seem a shocking state of affirs when you've got a ready made grid of upto 10 LMP1 cars and class structure beneath it that basically seems to work.

To just turn it all on its head, ostensibly to drag a few OEMs kicking and screaming to play with your ball. The mind boggles, really it does.

At least going down the DPI route would have been sustainable.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by andrewn7

At least going down the DPI route would have been sustainable.

In what way?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

In what way?

Cars are significantly cheaper. They can be sold and run by customers. Less staff required to run the cars properly.

Not saying DPi is better, but it's certainly appearing to be a sustainable formula.

[ApexTurtle]

Except that they only ever attracted 3 manufacturers that have no interest in running at Le Mans. And they're gonna need a new formula in a few years. Not saying it's not good for IMSA but just saying 'ACO should go with it' is very unhelpful.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

Except that they only ever attracted 3 manufacturers that have no interest in running at Le Mans. And they're gonna need a new formula in a few years. Not saying it's not good for IMSA but just saying 'ACO should go with it' is very unhelpful.

Well, let's be fair here. It has far attracted 3 manufacturers, and a fourth was privateer funded. That's 2 more manufacturers than the ACO Currently has, and the fourth is using a business model that currently does not work in LMP1.

These manufacturers have no interest in running at Le Mans with the current (or seemingly proposed) regulations. I'm not sure how that can be used as a negative of DPi, as that's solving the problem in IMSA.

Not that any of this matters, because the statement and the associated question is in what way is DPi more sustainable. It's cheaper, can be sold as customer cars, and be run effectively by privateers without a significant change to the teams structure. It is absolutely more sustainable than the current state of LMP1, and apparently the new ACO Regulations, since to be sustainable you need to actually get off the ground in the first place.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying DPi is good (or bad). But it's absolutely more sustainable. Just like using GT3 is more sustainable than GTE. Not sure it's the answer, but it's for sure more sustainable.

[ApexTurtle]

We're discussing LMP here, so the question is if it's more sustainable for the ACO and Le Mans. The poster I replied to didn't even specify what he means with sustainable. So, just a general point, it's better to ask questions than just assume everyone is on your page and going from there.

[Akrapovic]

I'll refer your to my previous answer -

It is more sustainable because the cars are cheaper (unlike the current LMP1Hs), can be sold to customers (unlike the current LMP1Hs), can be run effectively against factory cars (unlike current LMP1Hs), and do not require significant changes to the privateers operation (unlike the current LMP1Hs).

If the ACO used this forumla then yeah, it'd be far more sustainable. Same if they used GT3 and GT4 instead of GTE. Doesn't mean it's better, but it's more sustainable no matter which way you cut it. The only reason those current manufacturers aren't interested in Le Mans is the cars aren't legal. If the ACO used DPi then you'd have customer and works cars there in year 1. There are already enough cars crossing the pond for Le Mans as it is.

[ApexTurtle]

You're not interested in discussing this so I'll just leave it right there.

[Akrapovic]

I'm absolutely interested in discussing it. I kind of assumed you didn't want someone to actually give you the definition of sustainable. I think we're all above that, or could at least Google it Sustainable - the ability to run something (in this case a racing class) without it stopping for whatever reason (in motorsport case, low entry numbers).

For details on how this is achieved by DPi, see my post

But should this be the future LMP regulations? Not so sure. Love watching DPi, but I watch it for different reasons than I watch Le Mans for.

[Deleted]

DPi is the same exact format as Daytona Prototype Generation 3, just with 2010 chassis components instead of 1950 NASCAR tech. Which is why I guess it's not as hated by fans as the previous one, it is at least nice to look at and goes semi fast. And Penske and Joest are there now so there are names I suppose

I find DPi awful and disgracing to the title of "prototype" when it's mostly marketing rebadging and sticker jobs + BoP and spec, but I'd still take it over the confusing all-over-the-place nonsense that was proposed at Sebring by the ACO. Or the GTE+ thing. Marginally... At least the DPis are defined group of cars instead of mishmash of different crap jammed together.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Which is why I guess it's not as hated by fans as the previous one, it is at least nice to look at and goes semi fast.

And sound great.

Having watched DPIs now at two Daytonas and one Sebring, I'm a fan. I care far less than you what is under the skin and I attach far more significance to the look and sound. I do wonder sometimes if some of the the august and knowledgeable posters on this forum (not intending to single you out here) would do well to spend more time at trackside enjoying the spectacle and less time reading regulations.

My irritation at ACO is that they have a perfectly good set of rules now and are throwing it all away, as andrewn7 says a few posts ago, chasing semi-interested manufacturers rather than encouraging the potentially thriving privateer LMP1 grid.

[carbsmith]

Seems awfully optimistic to call something sustainable after 2 seasons and 3 races and a current grid size barely in the double digits. There was 9 cars and 3 factory teams on the grid at that point in the current LMP1 regulations.

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

My irritation at ACO is that they have a perfectly good set of rules now and are throwing it all away, as andrewn7 says a few posts ago, chasing semi-interested manufacturers rather than encouraging the potentially thriving privateer LMP1 grid.

A thriving privateer LMP1 grid can't carry the cost of a world championship on its back, unfortunately there's just no way around it. If they want this level of sports car racing to be relevant outside of Le Mans they need this kind of championship and this kind of championship has to have manufacturers to make the numbers add up, otherwise you're going to get a situation like the 00s with obscure regional series where Toyota can just show up in June and collect trophies for the better part of a decade like Audi.

You don't want to be like the Indy 500 where the the championship was so entirely worthless that it was only possible to justify a single spec car to keep the inevitably profitable event running, all the while tanking in every metric but race day attendance. Problem is though, this slow BoP cluster**** has many of the same problems anyways, but at some point you have to do whatever it takes because if WEC collapsed it would take a long time to put it back together again. Last time it was two decades.

[Deleted]

The DPi grid is basically exactly same as it was in the DPG3 era, except Ganassi and Shank and Spirit of Daytona and couple of others have been traded to other teams and the badging OEMs have changed names. There is no 'growth' to speak of. Besides all of the 4 LMP2 cartel chassis manufacturers underneath the OEM body panels have already been "used up", so the fifth DPi marque would be another Oreca clone or whatever

Anyway, we don't "need" WEC, we only need events around Le Mans. And you can reach that not only with regional events (IMO which should not be all pro-am), but with ILMC-styled series, integrating bigger events inside loosely connected series. That style of structure doesn't need OEMs to sustain itself. Having a world championship isn't necessity, nor is OEM greed money. I mean yes filling out the Porsche corporate VIP guest lists and stuff like that pays the bills, but perhaps such bills wouldn't be so extraordinary if there was some reorganizing in the ACO. FIA moniker alone costs a great deal

00's was great times for sportscar racing, even at the top of the food chain, I certainly have fond memories of it.

I don't mind the old "manufacturer event cherry picking" either, there's no reason to force people to run in the races they don't care about. And it gives the privateers room to battle it out in the other events. Besides if we're talking about lowering costs, why would you want your manufacturer X wasting money running on championship Y just because it grants entry to Le Mans. There's a reason why Audi only did 3 races and Peugeot 4 in 2009 after the financial collapse, those were the ones that mattered

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Chiana

00's was great times for sportscar racing, even at the top of the food chain, I certainly have fond memories of it.

I could not disagree more with this

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

I could not disagree more with this

Well you don't have to

But we had the dream that was the American Le Mans Series, we had Sebring and Petit Le Mans eligible for all the same classes that raced at Le Mans, LMP900/P1 and LMP675/P2 had amazing chassis and engine variety within regulations (I mean at times there was as much in one class as there is now in entire 60 plus field), tire wars still persisted, GTS/GT1 and GT/GT2 provided good (and for the final time) non-fabricated competiton in GT, FIA GT Championship was still great without GT3 taking over yet, LMS had huge grids without "filler classes", there was no pro-am or cost-cap or tech freeze or any of that crap anywhere

[TF110]

I didn't like the early 2000s with Audi and private teams but now it's Toyota and private teams. It got worse when they were allowed their diesel engines. At least today we have Toyota at over 900kg with their hybrid but private teams are ~830kg and more power/fuel. It still doesn't stack up to Toyota sadly. I hope they get better tires and they are more competitive in this next season. It might be the last for these lmp1's we've come to know and appreciate. At least one with a factory car.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Chiana

DPi is the same exact format as Daytona Prototype Generation 3, just with 2010 chassis components instead of 1950 NASCAR tech. Which is why I guess it's not as hated by fans as the previous one, it is at least nice to look at and goes semi fast. And Penske and Joest are there now so there are names I suppose

I find DPi awful and disgracing to the title of "prototype" when it's mostly marketing rebadging and sticker jobs + BoP and spec, but I'd still take it over the confusing all-over-the-place nonsense that was proposed at Sebring by the ACO. Or the GTE+ thing. Marginally... At least the DPis are defined group of cars instead of mishmash of different crap jammed together.

The DPI’s are no less technologically sophisticated than the LMP1-Privateer and LMP2 entries in the ACO series.

[ApexTurtle]

The LMP1s are definitely more sophisticated, that's one of the reasons they're so much faster