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Old 20 Aug 2002, 15:11 (Ref:362115)   #1
B/Mark
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B/Mark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Oulton Pk F3 revised results

I've just seen on www.autosport.com that the results of the first race may be changed to Mark Taylor as the winner.
The article explains the reason. It's at least natural justice if he gets the win as he was leading by a country mile when the red came out. It's a crazy rule that gives the win to a guy who fell off a lap earlier and was actually running about 7th at the end.
No doubt the Kerr contingent will winge cos their man stands to loose out as well.
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 15:25 (Ref:362129)   #2
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thats great news!

Although it reads as if its not cast in stone just yet guess where have to keep an eye on this and see how it unfolds
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 15:57 (Ref:362145)   #3
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sounds fair to me as Taylor was actually winning at the moment they stopped the race. ooh, sparks will fly!!!
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 17:18 (Ref:362203)   #4
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Speedworx should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thats a stupid rule. All races that are red flagged should go back a lap. So the original results should stand.

I bet Carlin were behind helping to get the result changed (Should it happen), as James stands to gain points over Robbie, which is wrong.

Last edited by Speedworx; 20 Aug 2002 at 17:23.
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 17:34 (Ref:362219)   #5
B/Mark
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B/Mark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's an even more stupid situation if Kerr gets points considering he crashed on lap ten.
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 17:47 (Ref:362230)   #6
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I'm sure Carlin were partly behind getting the results reversed and I don't blame them - what a bad team they'd be if they didn't seek to fight their driver's corner when the rules had been wrongly administered.

In fact it looks like Manor - team boss John Booth is as ever sharp as nails - who are seeking to get the result changed so their man Mark Taylor wins. And rightly so: the rules are black and white and the officials, it appears, have held their hands up to their error. Likewise, no driver running at the time of the red flag or who is the cause of a red flag should be allowed to stand in the results. As in Formula Renault. I believe this is also an MSA reg.

I don't favour Kerr or Courtney over the other but I wonder how the Kerr fans would react were it the other way around and suddenly it was Robbie who stood to gain over Courtney ...
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 17:54 (Ref:362235)   #7
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That is absolutely ridiculous. How on earth could a championship have such conflicting rules about stopping a race? Did everyone cross the line at the end of the tenth lap, or were some still on their ninth?

The reason I say that is because surely they would need all runners to have crossed the line to declare the result, if only a handful of cars had crossed the line then the F3 championship rule would mean that some results would have to be taken from the previous lap? Hence why the MSA take the result from the lap before. All very confusing.

Last edited by Paul Rayner; 20 Aug 2002 at 18:03.
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 18:36 (Ref:362268)   #8
Speedworx
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Speedworx should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Lets hope the results stay as they are, as they are the only correct ones.
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 18:40 (Ref:362271)   #9
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Les should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
leave the results as they are - everyone understands them and expected them.
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 18:51 (Ref:362285)   #10
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B/Mark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
OK, Here we go again. Who thinks we should play by the rules and who thinks we shouldn't?
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 19:02 (Ref:362298)   #11
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It looks like they actually got it right this time. Lets hope Taylor does get this win, seems the rain at Oulton separated the racers from the billies!
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 19:44 (Ref:362334)   #12
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Originally posted by B/Mark
OK, Here we go again. Who thinks we should play by the rules and who thinks we shouldn't?
I think we should play by the rules. I personally don't think that the F3 change to the MSA rule should exist, but it does, and so should be adhered to.

The reason I think it's a bad rule is that, as I understand it, it could ask for the result to be declared from the end of lap ten of the F3 race. Now if everyone has crossed the line that might be okay, but what if only five cars had crossed the line when the red flag was put out? Would we take the top five from lap ten, and the rest of the positions from lap nine? Obviously not, as it could mean one driver occupying two different places. Nor could we let the rest of the field race until the end of the lap, on a red flagged course.

It seems that this is one area of British Motorsport rules where there seem to be clashes. There are other areas, like "A race must run to 50/75% of race distance for full points to be applied, but this might not always be the case if the clerk of the course thinks otherwise".

Rules, especially in areas like this, need to be in black and white. It'd be fantastic if it was the same for all championships, then at least it'd be easier for us all to follow and people, be they the public or race officials, would get confused a lot less.
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 20:02 (Ref:362348)   #13
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What a fooking mess!
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Old 20 Aug 2002, 20:45 (Ref:362376)   #14
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Originally posted by Paul Rayner

Rules, especially in areas like this, need to be in black and white. It'd be fantastic if it was the same for all championships, then at least it'd be easier for us all to follow and people, be they the public or race officials, would get confused a lot less.
Couldn't agree more. When even the officials are getting their own rulebook wrong then there is surely something not right.
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Old 21 Aug 2002, 10:02 (Ref:362772)   #15
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I put my hands up and say I hope Mark gets the win but I'll also put my hands up and say I'm completly lost with the whole thing!

I didn't see the race but what I don't understand is if someone spins off on lap 9 and the red flag comes out on lap 10, they then role the result back by a lap and include the guys that go off surely that doesn't make sense!

whould it not have been better to do a full course yellow for lap ten that way they complete the lap but no one does anything crazy to make up a place? (ok its not racing I know but surely its a lot easier!)
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Old 21 Aug 2002, 10:23 (Ref:362794)   #16
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I was exactly thinking the same BennyBoy... just let everybody cross the line without any overtaking, and then stop the race... then you REALLY have the race-order of the moment the red-flag came out...
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Old 21 Aug 2002, 10:33 (Ref:362807)   #17
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They should've brought out the safety car and done a lap then that would've been fairer...but now it's too late and they've made a complete balls up...and it's not the first mistake the officials have made this year either!
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Old 21 Aug 2002, 10:49 (Ref:362817)   #18
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THR has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
as i understood it... the red flag is waved, and the race results are taken from the lap b4. ie the last lap is not exsistant.

that not wot happened?

if it rains, and a few fall off on lap 9, then thats racing cos it is still racing until they red flag it.
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Old 21 Aug 2002, 12:12 (Ref:362884)   #19
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yeah but if they full why should they be put back in the race?
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Old 21 Aug 2002, 16:08 (Ref:363029)   #20
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THR has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
act of god really innit... pure luck if u stay on track.. i think thats teh reason.
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Old 21 Aug 2002, 18:00 (Ref:363088)   #21
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Originally posted by Wiggy
They should've brought out the safety car and done a lap then that would've been fairer...but now it's too late and they've made a complete balls up...and it's not the first mistake the officials have made this year either!
It's very easy to run a race meeting from behind the fence! The Clerk of the Course has to make decisions based on the recommendations or requests of the observer at the post where the incident has occurred; the primary consideration is the safety of all concerned - drivers, marshals, spectators, etc.

In this instance, a car was in a dangerous position & could not be removed safely without pushing it into the path of oncoming cars, a dangerous act even with the safety car on the track. To have brought out the safety car would have meant that a lot of cars would have passed the incident under waved yellows; sadly, in F3, the waved yellow flag seems to have little effect on the speed of the cars.

Just remember, decisions as to how to handle an incident have to be made quickly; with hindsight, we can sometimes see that things could have been handled differently.

Last edited by Dave Brand; 21 Aug 2002 at 18:02.
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Old 22 Aug 2002, 13:39 (Ref:363655)   #22
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The Clerk of the Course is paid to make snap decisions. He is also expected to know the rules!
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Old 22 Aug 2002, 14:37 (Ref:363696)   #23
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Originally posted by Wiggy
The Clerk of the Course is paid to make snap decisions.
I'd prefer 'considered' rather than 'snap'! While ultimate responsibility rests with the CoC, it's the people actually out there dealing with the incident who have to provide the information on which his decision is based. That's why, to the casual observer, decisions can sometimes appear to be made rather slowly.

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He is also expected to know the rules!
I'm not going to argue with that! However, before we start a vendetta against one individual, let's be sure he is to 'blame'; maybe the timekeepers, or some other person or persons, were responsible for the incorrect results being issued? As Paul has said in this thread, one set of rules for all championships would make everything a lot easier for all concerned!
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Old 22 Aug 2002, 18:31 (Ref:363826)   #24
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There was a car off at Druids which caused the red flag.

The confusing part was working out who had won. MST got confused and the timing screens kept changing. MST need to state when the red flag was shown and which lap the leader had started.

The conditions were definitely wet but not monsoon.

Antinucci, Gilmore, Jouanny, Austin and de Groot all pitted for wets and Richard could easily have won with another lap or two.
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Old 22 Aug 2002, 18:58 (Ref:363838)   #25
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Originally posted by Muppet
There was a car off at Druids which caused the red flag.
The car for which the red flag was called was off between Clay Hill and Water Tower. It was on the racing line and could not be moved without endangering either the driver's or the marshals' lives.



The front wing was trapped between the wheels and the only way to remove it was to push the car backwards into the oncoming traffic. Once the race had been stopped and the track was clear the wing was removed (after pushing the car backwards) and the driver was able to drive back to the pits.

With repairs to the car completed the driver was able to compete in the second race.

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