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13 Jan 2009, 18:55 (Ref:2370810) | #51 | |||
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Had a look at the results pages for the first part of 1990, typed Farrell in the search function and John Farrell actually raced a Lancia Delta in the supporting street car class at the ATCC meeting that year. Italian Cutrera (first name unknown) was doing well enough to win three from ten races and a heat race at Enna, in the 1992 Italian CIVT class A1. Opposition consisted of a various Ford Sierras including a 4WD version, BMW M3s and 635 CSis and Alfa 75 in both Turbo and V6 configuration. It has to be said that the S1 and S2 classes were the main catagories. Jesper |
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13 Jan 2009, 22:20 (Ref:2370945) | #52 | ||
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The Lancia was a nice beast and I think still exists to this day.
If I remember the car blew up at the 1990 round in quali. I was there as a 12 year old! |
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13 Jan 2009, 22:58 (Ref:2370981) | #53 | |||
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It is interesting to hear about cars carrying over from the previous regs - here in Australia the superceded Group C cars were not allowed to race. Otherwise nobody would have run Group A cars, it was also something that was behind the teams driving the replacement of the Group A regs in the following decade because plenty of competitors did not appreciate having all their equipment made redundant at the stroke of a pen... |
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14 Jan 2009, 00:26 (Ref:2371029) | #54 | |||
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As I understand the Australian Group C it was based on cars available to the buying public with CAMS approved modifications being based on keeping various manufactures on a level playing field. Since this last detail was the culprit of many an argument, Group A was introduced as an internationally recognised replacement to stop the fuss over what was legal and what was not, since these matters was out of the jurisdiction of CAMS. By the way, why the name Group C? Another thing is that the number of eligible cars for the opening 1982 ETCC round at Monza on March 21st would have been very limited, as only 19 different models of true Group A cars were to choose from: January A5001 – Fiat Ritmo 105 TC (138 A2/SP) – 1585 cc A5002 – Lancia HP Executive 2000 IE (828 BF1/4A) A5003 – Renault 5 Alpine Turbo (R122B) 1397 cc x 1.4 = 1955.8 cc February A5004 – Saab 99 – 1985 cc A5005 – Saab 99 Turbo – 1985 cc x 1.4 = 2779 cc A5006 – BMW 528i – 2788 cc A5007 – none A5008 – Seat Panda 45 – 903 cc A5009 – Seat 124 Especial 1800 (FL-82) – 1756 cc A5010 – Audi 80 2.2 L – 2145 cc A5011 – Audi Coupe 2.2 L – 2145 cc A5012 – Audi 80 GLE – 1588 cc A5013 – Audi Coupe 2.0 L – 1921 cc March A5014 – BMW 323i (E21) – 2315 cc A5015 – Toyota Celica 2400 Coupe (RA64) – 2366 cc A5016 – Toyota Celica 2400 Lift-back (RA64) – 2366 cc A5017 – Toyota Celica 2000 GT Coupe (RA63) – 1968 cc A5018 – Toyota Celica 2000 Lift-back (RA61) – 1972 cc A5019 – Renault 5 Alpine (R122B) – 1397 cc A5020 – Volvo 240 Turbo – 2127 cc x 1.4 = 2977.8 cc Of the 27 cars that started that day at Monza only 7 cars/4 models (those highlighted above) had a proper Group A homologation, if I’m counting correct. http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...2%20Monza.html The many variations of Celicas reminds me of Australian Mike Freeman who raced a Toyota Celica (RA40) during 1986-1987 mainly in the under 2 litre championship – another Group 1 car homologated in May 1978 and at some stage transferred to Group A. I have what I believe is a full list of these Group 1 to A transfers, but without any date as to when the transfer happened. Jesper Last edited by Jesper OH; 14 Jan 2009 at 00:30. |
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14 Jan 2009, 14:09 (Ref:2371337) | #55 | |||
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The Jag XJS and Alfa GTV6 are missing from that 19 car list btw. The Alfa was homologated for Grp 1 we know, but did TWR get some dispensation to enter the Jag as I don't recall one ever racing as a Grp 1 car, only Grp A? I'd like to see that list of Grp 1 to Grp A transfers, very interesting! Last edited by chunterer; 15 Jan 2009 at 16:38. |
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14 Jan 2009, 15:59 (Ref:2371400) | #56 | |
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I think similar situation happened in rallying where a number of old Group 1, 2 & 4 homologations were 'grandfathered' by some means into Groups A & B- I don't know exactly how the process worked and if changes to spec were required, but it meant cars like the Escort RS, Chevette HSR, Sunbeam Lotus (as well as the original Ascona 400 and Quattro A1, both first homologated under Group 4) carried over into Group B for a while. I'd have to go digging through old Rally Sport mags to be sure of the exact situation- they fairly regularly (About once a year as I recall) printed a list of all current homologations and their expiry dates
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15 Jan 2009, 03:22 (Ref:2371754) | #57 | ||
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I imagine it would depend on the timing of things too - hard to build a car when the homologation has not been finalised.
I'm not sure why the term Group C was used, it predated the FIA usage by almost 10 years. The cars were originally very close to being 100% road cars, and even to the end you would have cars being built from a complete road car. The basic homologation requirements in 1973 were for 500 "basically identical" cars in the case of Aust cars or for Group 1 homologated cars there had to be 25 imported (eg this was done for the Escort RS2000s). By 1984 the homologation requirement increased to 1000, and any Grp1 car was eligible. It is worth noting the annual car market in Australia was 400,000 in 1970, rising to 450,000 in 1980, and that the 500/1000 requirement was a mixture of the base vehicle and the evolution in Group A terms. In the mid-late 70's there were arguments over things like factory stamped rockers breaking etc but in many cases these were overcome by changes to factory models - eg Holden V8 using a double-row timing chain, and the Torana A9X getting a stronger rear axle. The "equalisation" issues came later I think, say post-1980. One major difference between the Group C and Group A regs were the wheel arch flares that were allowed from 1980, as the Falcon and Commodore could not fit the 10" rims without them - previously the Torana SL/R 5000 had flares from the factory and the Falcon hardtop didn't need them. |
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15 Jan 2009, 12:41 (Ref:2371952) | #58 | ||
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When did the term 'Group C' start being used though? Although we had basically the same regulations from 1973 to 1984 (bar some major changes for 1980), i've only seen the name "group C" referenced to in the early 80s. During the 70s the class was seemingly usually referred to just as "Production Touring Cars"
As someone mentioned in another thread a while back, in Australia we had Group C Touring Cars and Group A Sportscars, in Europe it was Group A Tourers and Group C Sportscars |
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15 Jan 2009, 18:36 (Ref:2372195) | #59 | ||
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Thank you, johnh875 and racer69, as it clears my understanding of what Australian Group C was about.
Earlier in the thread it was "discovered" by me at least that the '85 Holdens were homologated for national (and New Zealand) Group A use only. The car had a choice of either just over or just under 5 litre capacity. The international homologation of January 1986 states a capacity of 4980.8 cc, so would that mean the +5 litre version was illegal after January '86? I know that there would have been little sence in using the big engine at this point anyway, as it would always be 75 kgs heavier. Jesper |
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16 Jan 2009, 00:13 (Ref:2372394) | #61 | ||
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Thank you for the link. Funny to see how the number of pages creaps up as the years go by regarding the 1973, 1974 and 1984 regulations!
I have found some rare cars from the All Japan Touring Car Championship and here it goes. Here is a number of models from division 2 1601-2500 cc from 1985-1987 – the BMW M3 arrived only for the forth round of the championship in September 1987, and with no BMW 323/325i, Alfa GTV6s ever raced and a pair of Japanese based Mercedes 190Es, that did little, there was plenty of scope for something different in preceeding years. The Nissan Silvia/Gazelle has already been mentioned, with a Mazda RX-7 also in the hunt for a few races, while a few VW Golfs and Sciroccos may or may not have been raced in this class or the smaller 1001-1600 cc. A5291 Honda Prelude (BA1) – 1985.02.01-1992.12.31 – 1958 cc The Meiwa team (don’t know the exact name) entered such a car for the final races of 1986 and five of six races of the 1987 season, missing the Fuji WTCC race probably not qualifying, but I don’t have the data. A sole class victory at the opening ’87 season at Nishi-Nihon was the high point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Prelude Look for the second generation for image and idea of the general looks of this car. A5309 Isuzu Gemini Turbo JT150 – 1986.10.01-1993.12.31 – 1464 cc x 1.4 = 2049.6 cc / 1464 cc x 1.7 = 2488.8 cc A front wheel drive hatch back opposed to the 4 door rear wheel cars seen in Australia. Two cars were regulars during 1987 winning the class at Sugo 19th overall! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isuzu_Gemini Look for the second generation for image and idea of the general looks of this car. A similar looking car can be seen in the Autosport report of the Wellington 500 1990 or 1991 race report – Any info on this entry? This generation Gemini was also homologated with a 1471 cc normally aspirated engine in both 3 door hatch back and 4 door saloon guise. A5260 Mitsubishi Colt Mirage (C13A) – 1985.04.01-1993.12.31 – 1597 cc x 1.4 = 2235.8 cc A single car raced twice during 1986 winning the season finale at Suzuka. A Swiss lady driver hill climbed such a devise and might have raced it at circuit races for the Swiss Championship, but no evidence found of these races as of yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Mirage Look for the second generation for image and idea of the general looks of this car. It starts to be a bit repetitive, that second generation thing… A5296 or 5297 Toyota Celica 2.0 GT (ST162) – 1986.04.01-beyond 1998 – 1996.2 cc Don’t know if the sole Japanese Celica was a Coupé (A5296) or Lift Back (A5297) it’s your own choice, until a picture can surfaces. Trust of Porsche 956/962 Group C fame entered this car through 1987, even qualifying for the Fuji WTCC but retired. The car won on it’s first two appearances at Nishi Sendai and at Tsukuba but DNF’ed for the rest of the year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica Look for the forth generation for image and idea of the general looks of this car. A5303 Toyota Starlet Turbo (EP71) – 1986.07.01-beyond 1998 – 1296 cc x 1.4 = 1814.4 cc MG Metro Turbo sized division 2 car. Probably two different cars appeared in late ‘86/early ’87 races winning at it’s debut race at Nishi Sendai ’86. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Starlet Look for the 70 Series/second generation for image and idea of the general looks of this car. Finally here is two rare division 3/1001-1601 cc cars from 1988-1993: Nissan Pulsar 3 door 1600 (EN13) – 1987.01.01-1995.12.31 – 1598 cc One perhaps two cars entered late 1987 and seen sparingly through 1988. Best thing about this car was it’s rarity, second best that it finished at all four appearances. A sole 9th was best class result. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Pulsar Look for the N13 series for image and idea of the general looks of this car. If you have ever seen the Winning Star VHS – a compilation of the 1987 WTCC as seen from the Eggenberger Texaco team – you can briefly see this car during the Fuji race. The car looks like a FWD Corolla but even more squared and the colour is white. The car was wearing #101 and beaten into a class 8th by the WTCC Alfa 33, so not likely to be too hot a car this Pulsar, better known as a Cherry in Europe. A5367 Isuzu Gemini 1600 Sedan (JT190) – 1988.10.01-1993.12.31 – 1588 cc A5423 Isuzu Gemini – 1991.01.01-1996.12.31 – 1588.3 cc Team Koyama Garage entered a single car over the 1989-1991 period in the frantic baby class war among the hordes of Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics. From seven starts a 9th and a 10th in class was all that was achieved. http://amagawa.hp.infoseek.co.jp/90-...90-JTCR6-5.jpg Finally a link to the real deal. I wonder if the Gemini signature on the doors indicate some sort of works support. Jesper Last edited by Jesper OH; 16 Jan 2009 at 00:18. |
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16 Jan 2009, 01:17 (Ref:2372424) | #62 | |||
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john875 - thanks for the link. Interesting then that although the Group C name is referenced from 1973, the press etc.. didn't start describing the cars as this until the early 80s, at least as far as i can tell from RCN's and footage from the time.
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Holden had originally wanted to homologate the 'evolution' car on August 1 1985, but delays meant they missed the deadline (the car was thus homolgated in January 1986) However CAMS did allow some changes to get homologated on August 1 1985, in time for the Australian Endurance Championship. These included the 4980cc engine, and a 5 speed gearbox, as opposed to the 4-speed that had been in the cars during the ATCC. Not everyone upgraded, Steve Masterton pushed on with the original engine & gearbox, though by that time the team was nearly finished. |
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16 Jan 2009, 01:27 (Ref:2372428) | #63 | ||
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I reckon a modern or re-invented version of Group C would be great, it would bring back the diversity & class structure missing from V8 Supercars today..
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16 Jan 2009, 10:12 (Ref:2372559) | #64 | ||
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16 Jan 2009, 11:42 (Ref:2372595) | #65 | ||
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I think it was either Des Winks or Martin Wray? A Uniroyal regular entry.
Memory tells me the car was white and blue..... and unsurprisingly verrrry slow amongst the Group A cars! One of the cars Jesper mentioned in that list just up the page - The Isuzu Gemini Turbo - was linked to speculation about a potential BTCC entry at some point or other as well, circa 85/86 time. I'm sure there was a small news story in one of the comics about the UK importer getting excited about some saloon racing project which subsequently never came off? It may just have been one of the 'Motoring News' 'In Brief' column rumours during an off season? The engine size would've put in in 'Class B' against the Escort RST and Alfa's though..... Last edited by chunterer; 16 Jan 2009 at 15:33. |
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16 Jan 2009, 13:01 (Ref:2372667) | #66 | |
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Thanks- thinking about it, I reckon it was Martin Wray's Prelude at Brands
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20 Jan 2009, 16:22 (Ref:2375415) | #67 | ||
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http://flickr.com/photos/16788879@N0...7611422894664/ The car returned to the BTCC in 1987 for a few races in the hands of Kevin Eaton, in an all-white livery. I should have a (very poor) 1987 pic of the car taken at Donington somewhere at home, but can't find it at the moment... |
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20 Jan 2009, 17:44 (Ref:2375461) | #68 | ||
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Is that an oil cooler below the front panel? Looks like a wanna-bee front spoiler
Great pictures KA Jesper |
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21 Jan 2009, 10:15 (Ref:2375960) | #69 | ||
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21 Jan 2009, 10:47 (Ref:2375989) | #70 | |||
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Don't know how competitive a Group A version could have been in the 2.5 litre catagory. A minimum weight of 880 kgs should have been easy, but what about power out put? Another small turbo car found is a Daihatsu Charade from Spa 24h of 1986 Teddy Pilette driving: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...986%20Spa.html It's 993 cc engine was small enough to squeeze into the 1.6 class, but 17 seconds off class pole. Jesper |
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21 Jan 2009, 11:44 (Ref:2376025) | #71 | |||
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http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/renault11.htm Going on that, it would probably be well and truly outgunned in the 2.5 litre class, but at 880kg, maybe reasonably effective in the BTCC's 1600cc-2-litre class of 1987-89, though I suspect it wouldn't live with the 200bhp+ 16-valve Astras in '89. On the other hand, the little MG Metro Turbo was very quick in the 2.5 litre category with only a 1300cc turbo engine in 1983/4, but even with the benefit of continued development if ARG hadn't pulled out in '84, I can't imagine it would have been able to stay on the pace much after 1985 with the Escort RS Turbo and 325i appearing in the class I don't know how close to full Group A spec the Postan car was- Most of the various 5 Turbos that appeared in the BTCC were simply cars from the one-make series running on slicks. The Roger Saunders BTCC car pictured in an earlier post was much more like a 'proper' Group A example by 1987, but I don't know what kind of power it was producing. Quote:
Last edited by KA; 21 Jan 2009 at 11:47. |
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2 Feb 2009, 13:15 (Ref:2386583) | #72 | |
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A slight twist to this thread- thinking about it, some of the very well-known Group A cars we've discussed in other threads weren't really all that widely raced outside the factory teams that ran them.
The Metro turbo has already had a mention in this thread is an obvious example of this, but probably one of the best-known Group A cars of all was actually quite a rare bird- the Jag XJS. OK, TWR camapigned them in the ETCC from 82-85 and then intermittently after that, but apart from the 'works' cars, how many more were there? The Gary Willmington car in Australia, the John Goss Citibank car at Bathurst in '86 and the Prince/Hourigan car in NZ http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817@N07/2791283259/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817@N07/2780280349/ which appeared in at least one of the Wellington Nissan-Mobil races in '85/6 http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...ellington.html but that's about it- I don't think I know of there having been a privateer XJS anywhere in Europe? Last edited by KA; 2 Feb 2009 at 13:18. |
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2 Feb 2009, 15:49 (Ref:2386630) | #73 | ||
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Think you're absolutely right KA. It's pretty odd that the only part of the world where there were privateer Big Cat efforts were about as far away from their homeland (and any instant factory support) as possible!
Sometime I can't help thinking what might have been if the MSA has opened up Class A of the Trimoco series post '84 (when the series needed help for couple of years) to allow cars with bigger engines than 3.6 litres in. I'd put money on people having entered an XJS (TWR 'privateer' most likely?) and Commodore's if they had freed up the capacity limit rather than leave it for 2 years until 87. By then it was too late thanks to Sierra Cosworth...... Back to your older post a sec as well, i'm not sure about the Metro Turbo suffering against competition you know. When ARG pulled the works backing midway through '84 it was still very much in development and ironing out bugs. Watts and Brundle still hadn't IMO, been able to get the best from the cars. Also Remember that Soper performance early in 1985 at Silverstone?!!! Ok, so Steve was one of the fastest tin top guys of all time, but I think it showed what that car could do with all guns blazing.... With the right drivers, I reckon that little car would have given the Escort RST trouble on tighter tracks and would only have looked past it when the M3turned up - to be honest nothing would have troubled that thing in the end!! A nice match up might have been Longman, versus Watts in the Metro and someone like Sytner in an 325i and Goode with the Bluebird in Britain!!! Last edited by chunterer; 2 Feb 2009 at 16:20. |
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2 Feb 2009, 16:09 (Ref:2386645) | #74 | ||
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John Clinton ran a privateer Jaguar in the 1986 Pepsi 250 at Oran Park (November 1986). It raced in a white livery, perhaps it was the ex-Prince car?
Goss' Jaguar is nowadays displayed as a replica of the 1985 Bathurst winning 1985 JRA Jaguar, even though the car raced in Group C trim from 1980-1984, before being converted to Group A trim for the 1986 Bathurst 1000 after TWR & JRA withdrew their Jaguar/Rover Vitesse entry. |
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2 Feb 2009, 16:16 (Ref:2386648) | #75 | ||
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Fine twist there, KA
I recently re-read the BMW 635 thread and found a hint of a Portugese XJ-S and I think our very own Frank de Jong has suggested to me that a big cat was around in the Netherlands too, but haven’t heard of either car otherwise. Here in Denmark though Kim Stenberg build his own XJ-S from a road car and without support from TWR. He was a regular participator if not finisher in national Danish races during 1985-86 taking on a Swedish race every now and then. To my knowledge he had his final start in the fall of 1987 after the homologation had expired. Various handling issues as well as gearbox problems was often described. Recently I read about the Clinton Jaguar and that it was only completed for the end of year Australian endurance races. Given the expiring homologation at the end of the year both his and Goss’ conversion for only a few races seems a bit over the top for privateers, but always a bit of color to the Group A scene. Regarding the MG Metro Turbos; was there ever build more than four factory cars? Armin Hahne raced a Metro during late 1984 DTM races and Volker Anhalt did a few 1985 races, but a picture of the Hahne car suggest that his car was British sourced. I think to remember Paul Taft being mentioned as a Metro Turbo driver in the BTCC mid-80s and that Colin Pearcy contested the ’87 season in an ex-factory car. And then to another truly rare Group A car: http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/VM...88/Image8.html For the first link look at the center of the picture and then a little to the left for the ENEM POWER wind screen. http://ahvenistonfanisivut.com/vm/VM...8/Image10.html Here's a look at the car from the back sponsored by Pioneer. From what I can gleam from the text this is Mikael Sundström in a Mazda 323 Turbo. Given his rally credentials I would this was his usual 4x4 rally mount. The race is at Finnish Ahvenisto Hämenlinna and the race is likely a Nordic championship race, given the presence of Swedes and Danes among the Finns. Jesper Last edited by Jesper OH; 2 Feb 2009 at 16:18. |
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