Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974 (Group 2 !!)

[4dnut]

Hi Guys,
I have a Ford RS parts book from 1973, in the engine section it has alloy cylinder block
9052 005 standard bore giving 1601cc
9052 006 bored and honed to give 2000c
So I guess this was a Ford option from then?
Also on BDA cam carrier has small follower size both sides whereas BDG has larger on one side with long dick followers? Also didn't BDG introduce uprated cam carrier with stiffening around the cam thrusts.

Paul

[tony griffiths]

Works engines done by Brian Hart and then Terry Hoyle --- all Mk 2's were done by Mr Hoyle.

[Mike Bell]

Thanks Tony. A relief to find that Hart did build works engines in the Mk1 era, as have seen many references to that fact and didn't want to doubt all of them! Terry Hoyle's association with Boreham late 70s makes sense.

Paul, thanks for checking the RS parts lists. I had one in period and must get another! Ford's RS parts selling policy in those days would make including engine blocks a given, but wonder if the 2000cc was a bored and honed version of the 1601cc or different casting?

The other question is, who supplied the 2000cc blocks for Ford to sell- Hart?

[jonners]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I beg to differ as far as rate changes. I have a very simple method that I have used for years allowing me to change to a wet setting in a few minutes ! but I'll never tell how

Gordon - so how do you change back to a dry setting once you've emptied your can of WD40?? Flamethrower maybe!!!

Sorry to go back on topic folks. This thread is just pure automotive porn to a Ford watcher like me!

I believe that the Alan Mann red and gold championship winning Escort X00 349F used torsion bars but hat was built in 1968 or thereabouts.

As for the BDG I believe that the head and cam carrier were different in key areas to the original BDA items but don't have the detail to hand. You couldn't create a proper BDG by starting with a BDA.

Recent issues of Retro Ford magazine (bit low brow for some) deal with the manner in which 2 alloy BDG blocks are being recast on behalf of Cosworth and sold complete with Ford markings - I'll have to reread the articles but am sure they suggest that Cosworth did them themselves at one point in period - but it's diificult to know how accurate some of these magazines are - but then again I would have thought the articles would have been approved by Cosworth - or maybe nobody's left out there these days who can remember these things with 100% accuracy.

Amazing thing is that quite a few people are now casting these alloy blocks. Wilcox has already been mentioned and there's Dave Gathercole too - he's also doing blocks for the Twin Cam/FVA/FVC.

The interesting thing about the FVA/FVC is that i always understood all those engines belonged to Ford at all times and you had to lease them - which explains why there are virtually none around. These days - with deep pockets - you can get hold of so much more than you could in period!!

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by jonners

The interesting thing about the FVA/FVC is that i always understood all those engines belonged to Ford at all times and you had to lease them - which explains why there are virtually none around. These days - with deep pockets - you can get hold of so much more than you could in period!!

Not sure about the early days but you could certainly buy FVCs in 1976 as I had one in an Escort, as did many Special Saloon boys. Seems unlikely that Ford would have leased rather than sold the units. Certainly agree with the last part of your paragraph.

[tony griffiths]

Leasing was unheard of in those days .. you bought it or you walked !
later BDG's had bigger inlet valves and bigger cam followers [DFV] and then a different cam carrier

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by jonners

Sorry to go back on topic folks. This thread is just pure automotive porn to a Ford watcher like me!

I believe that the Alan Mann red and gold championship winning Escort X00 349F used torsion bars but hat was built in 1968 or thereabouts.

Amazing thing is that quite a few people are now casting these alloy blocks. Wilcox has already been mentioned and there's Dave Gathercole too - he's also doing blocks for the Twin Cam/FVA/FVC.

These days - with deep pockets - you can get hold of so much more than you could in period!!

Jonners, as you have noticed some of us could talk about Escorts all day

Yes, have seen pics of underneath of XOO and did have torsion bars at one point.

Not sure if several people casting blocks or one company producing on behalf of others. Good news for racers though- and nothing wrong with RF mag!

Yes, with modern tech possible to recreate most stuff better than that available in period- at a price

[Gungebucket]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Thanks Tony. A relief to find that Hart did build works engines in the Mk1 era, as have seen many references to that fact and didn't want to doubt all of them! Terry Hoyle's association with Boreham late 70s makes sense.

Paul, thanks for checking the RS parts lists. I had one in period and must get another! Ford's RS parts selling policy in those days would make including engine blocks a given, but wonder if the 2000cc was a bored and honed version of the 1601cc or different casting?

The other question is, who supplied the 2000cc blocks for Ford to sell- Hart?

Here goes a few memories of the BD aluminium blocks. Hart did indeed make his own blocks, they had "chromard" liners at 90 mm bore. There were problems with the early blocks where the liners had a habit of sliding down the parent bore! Around 1972 Hart was making blocks for Ford. I don't know who did the castings but they were all machined by "The modern precision tool company" in Danbury Essex. I was working for John Lievesley in Brentwood at the time and I had to pressure-test all the blocks, both the waterways and the oilways. Once tested I had to stamp the block to show that it had been tested. Hart and Lievesley were very close and had worked together at Cosworth in the early years. John used to do all the valve gear for Brian Hart and did a lot of design work on Brian's projects. I wonder if I still have that stamp somewhere? D

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gungebucket

Here goes a few memories of the BD aluminium blocks. Hart did indeed make his own blocks, they had "chromard" liners at 90 mm bore. There were problems with the early blocks where the liners had a habit of sliding down the parent bore! Around 1972 Hart was making blocks for Ford. I don't know who did the castings but they were all machined by "The modern precision tool company" in Danbury Essex. I was working for John Lievesley in Brentwood at the time and I had to pressure-test all the blocks, both the waterways and the oilways. Once tested I had to stamp the block to show that it had been tested. Hart and Lievesley were very close and had worked together at Cosworth in the early years. John used to do all the valve gear for Brian Hart and did a lot of design work on Brian's projects. I wonder if I still have that stamp somewhere? D

Excellent stuff. Thanks for passing the info on and hope you find that stamp! Apparantly Keith Duckworth was impressed by the way Hart got round the problem of liners moving by hard-chroming the bores instead.

From what you have said sounds likely the 2 litre Alloy block Ford were selling through their RS Parts division in 1973 was Hart supplied. Paul, does the parts book list different cylinder heads as well as blocks?

[enforsa]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Jonners, as you have noticed some of us could talk about Escorts all day

Sometimes I do

[jsvahn]

Can anyone confirm if there is any difference between the aluminium Atlas (Pighead) and a "original" one or is it just the material?

A friend of mine might help to find someone who can make them in aluminium..

[4dnut]

I have the tooling for an alloy atlas, Chris said he will take some photos for me to post.It is a bit different, the casting is wider with larger gussets, it has o-ring sealing instead of a gasket etc, I have done a bending test on my alloy atlas and it was double the stiffness in the toe plane and the same in the camber plane, I also used Chromoly tube, the whole casing with tubes weighed 10kg less than a standard atlas.

Paul

[Mike Bell]

Hi Paul, I remember you telling us that few pages back

Are you taking orders?

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by 4dnut

I have the tooling for an alloy atlas, Chris said he will take some photos for me to post.It is a bit different, the casting is wider with larger gussets, it has o-ring sealing instead of a gasket etc, I have done a bending test on my alloy atlas and it was double the stiffness in the toe plane and the same in the camber plane, I also used Chromoly tube, the whole casing with tubes weighed 10kg less than a standard atlas.

Paul

Gr.2 or Gr.5 ??

Similar to this axle?



for zooming:
https://picasaweb.google.com/superro...26755871451810

[4dnut]

I will make some more, I have been using this in my car with no problems and have sold a few,I will probably make 6x at a time, I know this isn't a for sale forum so have not tried use as such.When I supply it is the alloy centre and chromoly tube to suit. brackets to suit car can then be fitted as per normal.

Paul

[Mike Bell]

Paul, pm me please if you cast some more.

OK, another question about the Broadspeed and Zakspeed cars from 1972-

The unique Escort Mk1 wheelarch extensions used by Broadspeed for Gp2, then by Zakspeed were made of... Fibreglass or Metal?

They don't appear on the RS1600 homologation papers- assume as App J covers the fitting of wing extensions without minimum production number. From the shape and design I had always thought that were fibreglass, but does anyone have first hand knowledge to confirm this?

[Mike Bell]

Few snippets from long chat with John Wilcox while surrounded by BDs, Twinks and X flows today.

His recollections of the BDA alloy block birth are same as others. After funding the patterns and getting Sterling Metals to start manufacture in 1972 from then on it was a Ford block, not Hart. The letters SM appear on genuine Sterling blocks on RHS near back.

If I got this right, at some point later in the block's life it was made or marketed by Quaife.

John can't remember any other engine builders producing their own alloy blocks.

The 1600 alloy block could then and can now be taken out to 2 litres by boring and fitting liners. There was not a different block for 2 litre engines.

Ford kept Mk2 RS1800 road car engine at circa 1840cc for reliability and to keep potential warranty claims down. They then got caught out when App J changed in 1976 and only allowed a small overbore in Gp2.

Cosworth only ever built 2 litre competition engines (BDG) with iron blocks. They did however sell alloy blocks- sourced form Ford.

BDG heads were originally 3 stud exhaust, the 4 stud head was introduced for BDT, along with some block changes. The latter involved changes to pattern so all subsequent blocks including those made now by Cosworth have these casting modifications. (Larger oilway, bosses for knock sensors, at least.) I assume the Turbo engine 4 bolt mains along with different water pump were achieved with machining rather than casting changes.

Following on, Escort Mk1 therefore would not have had 4 stud exhaust head (and they are not allowed on UK Hiistoric spec Mk1 rally cars now).

The works rally cars fitted with Lucas injection had the pressure pump on intake side of engine and driven off inlet cam. This entailed replacing slide throttle with butterfly type, but at least allowed alternator to remain in normal position.

Engine builders refer to engines as BDE, BDG, BDR etc even if not genuine Cosworth as it suggests a certain specification.

Not sure if that helps with any of the questions asked, or that everyone will agree, but was interesting for me anyway!

[jsvahn]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Few snippets from long chat with John Wilcox while surrounded by BDs, Twinks and X flows today.

His recollections of the BDA alloy block birth are same as others. After funding the patterns and getting Sterling Metals to start manufacture in 1972 from then on it was a Ford block, not Hart. The letters SM appear on genuine Sterling blocks on RHS near back.

If I got this right, at some point later in the block's life it was made or marketed by Quaife.

John can't remember any other engine builders producing their own alloy blocks.

The 1600 alloy block could then and can now be taken out to 2 litres by boring and fitting liners. There was not a different block for 2 litre engines.

Ford kept Mk2 RS1800 road car engine at circa 1840cc for reliability and to keep potential warranty claims down. They then got caught out when App J changed in 1976 and only allowed a small overbore in Gp2.

Cosworth only ever built 2 litre competition engines (BDG) with iron blocks. They did however sell alloy blocks- sourced form Ford.

BDG heads were originally 3 stud exhaust, the 4 stud head was introduced for BDT, along with some block changes. The latter involved changes to pattern so all subsequent blocks including those made now by Cosworth have these casting modifications. (Larger oilway, bosses for knock sensors, at least.) I assume the Turbo engine 4 bolt mains along with different water pump were achieved with machining rather than casting changes.

Following on, Escort Mk1 therefore would not have had 4 stud exhaust head (and they are not allowed on UK Hiistoric spec Mk1 rally cars now).

The works rally cars fitted with Lucas injection had the pressure pump on intake side of engine and driven off inlet cam. This entailed replacing slide throttle with butterfly type, but at least allowed alternator to remain in normal position.

Engine builders refer to engines as BDE, BDG, BDR etc even if not genuine Cosworth as it suggests a certain specification.

Not sure if that helps with any of the questions asked, or that everyone will agree, but was interesting for me anyway!

Thanks Mike

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Few snippets from long chat with John Wilcox

Really useful stuff. I would imagine that is as definitive as we will get, nearly four decades after the event! I am sure Quaife will have records to confirm when they made their alloy blocks, but I have a feeling it was quite a bit later - I could be wrong though!

[phoenix]

Information gathered on the most recently produced BD blocks carrying the Ford logo is that they are being, or have recently been, produced by Grainger & Worrall using the "Coscast" process developed by Cosworth, long after the original BD alloy blocks were first produced and so never used in the production original BD alloy blocks.

Grainger & Worrall, a fine example of a British manufacturing excellence surviving in 2011 if there ever was one (in my opinion), apparently produce a lot of high-end motorsport castings, including blocks for for F1 and NASCAR in both iron and alloy.

Grainger & Worrall apparently 'inherited' the patterns for the BD and the "Coscast" technology (either first or second hand) when Cosworth closed their own foundry operation after one of the 'takeovers'.

Some quick research reveals that these BD blocks are being sold via a number of after market suppliers/engine builders and Cosworth USA, via cosworth.com in the USA.

G&W also appear to be producing a Pinto/YB 200 block in alloy (not that is relevent to this thread)

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Grainger & Worrall, a fine example of a British manufacturing excellence surviving in 2011 if there ever was one (in my opinion), apparently produce a lot of high-end motorsport castings, including blocks for for F1 and NASCAR in both iron and alloy.

Some quick research reveals that these BD blocks are being sold via a number of after market suppliers/engine builders and Cosworth USA, via cosworth.com in the USA.

Was trying to find a union flag, but hope England one is acceptable in it's place! G&W are in Shropshire, anyway...... BTW Sterling Metals are also still in business in the Midlands.



I am sure you are right about all the blocks now being sold originating from same foundry. I would think it a fair guess the same happened in period.

[Bunman]

Evening all,
I have a couple of interesting articles, one from 1977 and one from 1979 regarding Cosworth BD info,history and development. I will try and scan them and post them up.
I also have copies of the original Cosworth data/spec sheets and engine installation drawings etc for most of the BD engines. A-D-E-G-H-M and R

In one article from 1977 it says that the very first Alloy BD series block was literally "tripped over" by Peter Ashcroft while on a visit to Brian Hart's Harlow newtown workshop in early 1972.Up until this point Ford were unaware that Brian had been designing an alloy block.
Peter Ashcroft subsequently had an Alloy version BD engine built and in an Escort before the 72 season began.

Incidentally I still run a slide injected iron blocked 1300 BDH in my Escort.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Bunman

Peter Ashcroft subsequently had an Alloy version BD engine built and in an Escort before the 72 season began.

Incidentally I still run a slide injected iron blocked 1300 BDH in my Escort.

Welcome Bunman- is that you on 'le Val des Terres' in the yellow Mk2?

Going back to history, apparantly in first event (rally) the alloy block engine parted company with engine mounts, so not all smooth sailing! In testing beforehand drivers confirmed how much better attitude of car was when airborn due to having less weight over front. Obviously practicing it a bit too much....

Think at some I point need to compile a list of 10-Tenths Escort owners- seems to be quite a few around the world!

[Bunman]

Welcome Bunman- is that you on 'le Val des Terres' in the yellow Mk2?




It is indeed Mike

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Bunman

Welcome Bunman- is that you on 'le Val des Terres' in the yellow Mk2?




It is indeed Mike

1300 BDH rules!

I like to re-read the story of Vince Woodman, Gillian F-T and Peter Hanson's Broadspeed BDH Escorts in the 1973 BTC. Typical Ford- taking full advantage of the rules! Such homologation specials probably helped bring on the demise of Gp2.........

Sadly there seems very little interest in racing small capacity Gp2 cars (in UK) now, but sure would be fun!