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Old 21 Sep 2009, 11:46 (Ref:2544871)   #51
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Originally Posted by V8Bobby View Post
I have been at pretty much every round for the past 8 years (no, I'm not connected to VESA) and let me tell you, street races are where the sport needs to head.

I agree that these traditional circuits have a strong place in Australian motorsport but the facts are that V8 Supercars has outgrown most of these circuits.
Explain to me how your above statements are sustainable for australian motorsport and V8SA?
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Old 21 Sep 2009, 14:13 (Ref:2545055)   #52
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WA ...

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Im not actually disagreeing with you, But if you think what you just said. 3 million people, at $10 per head thats $30 million people, small price to pay to update an out of date racing circuit and for the record the WA surplus this year is over $600 million with an $8.3 Billion (note the "B") infrastructure spending. Now tell me why they cant kick in some money to support motorsport, they support other sports, they support the arts, and they have a $559 million recreation and culture budget

oh yeah so how does that make TC a bully when thats who he is fighting against. The oily wheel get the oil
peck, I'm sure you are aware TC & his cohorts have been trying for years to get into the WA taxpayers purse & been rejected, rejected, rejected .... he fails to understand the WA economy is not tourist based & going back to the WRC the sponsorship had primarily an international target (not delivered by V8SC).

IF, IF V8SC does not run in WA it will have a detrimental effect on the funding of the teams. How long will the team owners cop this?

And peck, the new proposed Aussie Rules stadium is no more & they get 30k+ punters to 22 games thru winter, 20 against interstate clubs ... I hope the WASCC get Wanneroo upgraded but 'wise men from the east' are not well received in many quarters in WA & I'd suggest TC retain a local spin doctor if he is to have any chance.
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Old 21 Sep 2009, 18:45 (Ref:2545316)   #53
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Originally Posted by V8Bobby View Post
The one thing that a lot of you fail to realise though is that you are not the people being targeted by V8Supercars with their expansion plans. For the sport to grow, it needs to target a new audience.
Actually I think probably everyone here gets that. Casual fans are important, however I wouldn't neglect the enthusiasts either. The enthusiasts on a per capita basis contribute more $$ and interest that keeps the sport alive. They weather the storms and casual fans come and go and you can't count on them.

Personally I love street races and if well run are fantastic events. However permanent circuits also have their place as well. As a driver myself, I wouldn't want to run all year in a concrete canyon. As a fan as well, I wouldn't always want to go to a street circuit.

In Australia the street races seem to be heavily dependent on government funding which I believe is an achilles heel that might fail you at some point. I wouldn't fall into the trap of being totally dependent on those events. I've seen the rise and fall of quite a few street circuits in the USA that all ended sometimes for obscure reasons or reasons outside the promoters control.

So don't be too quick to torch bridges.
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Old 21 Sep 2009, 21:22 (Ref:2545478)   #54
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Welcome and sorry...

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I have been reading these forums for a while and the one thing that stands out is everyone's passion for motorsport, no matter what side of the fence you are coming from.

The one thing that a lot of you fail to realise though is that you are not the people being targeted by V8Supercars with their expansion plans. For the sport to grow, it needs to target a new audience. Whilst your passion for returning to the days of driving your car up to a permenant track with your BBQ and esky beside you to watch cars going head to head with each other may be valid, it is not what V8Supercars is about. First and foremost, V8Supercars is an entertainment category. It is there to give people a day out with all of the speed and action that is motorsport. Most people at Townsville this year had never been to a motorsport event and wouldn't go to another one all year, yet the event was a roaring success and the public loved it! That's what the sport is about. Without these large numbers, it would not look anything like it does today (granted, some people would like that!).

I have been at pretty much every round for the past 8 years (no, I'm not connected to VESA) and let me tell you, street races are where the sport needs to head. I see joe public paying $40 to go stand in the rain and mud in a paddock in Benalla vs. a few extra dollars for a world class event like Clipsal.

Ask anyone who has to queue up for 2 hours to get into Barbagallo to then stand on rock all day if they would prefer to either a) have better facilities or b) catch a train into Perth?

I agree that these traditional circuits have a strong place in Australian motorsport but the facts are that V8 Supercars has outgrown most of these circuits.

I disagree with a lot of what VESA has done (including only demanding in the past that most upgrades relate to team or corporate facilities), however with their street circuit push around the country, they are certainly on the right track.
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Originally Posted by DRT
Explain to me how your above statements are sustainable for australian motorsport and V8SA?
Thanks V8Bobby for your comments and welcome to the forums. Although I don’t completely agree with your street track sentiments or track upgrade views, it is refreshing to see a balanced opinion.
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Old 21 Sep 2009, 21:55 (Ref:2545510)   #55
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Explain to me how your above statements are sustainable for australian motorsport and V8SA?
Of course every event can't be a street race, but every event needs to become an 'Event'.

Winton - the year they didn't run the V8's, they actually made more money. If this circuit is more financially viable without them, then they should be concentrating on the other classes. Winton is a great circuit that is booked out every day of the year and makes money. As far as V8's are concerned, it is just too far out of the way to attract a decent crowd to enable the circuit to recoup their costs of staging the round.

VESA - No matter what we all think (hey, I am a motorsport purist), the sport is where it is today because of money. An Adelaide or Townsville or (we will see) Homebush is going to attract a much larger crowd than a Phillip Island. More people equals more money. Recouping the sanction fee by the promoter is easier, selling naming rights to an event is easier.

Don't forget that the teams only survive through sponsorship. At the end of the day, sponsors will pay according to how many of their potential customers they can 'touch' and the difference they think the sponsorship will make to their bottom line. Bigger crowds and viewing audience, the more reasons teams have to justify the $$$ they are demanding.

I also prefer to watch permenant circuits, but street races work because they can be placed in an existing large population, near public transport and easy access for corporate guests. PI is a fantastic circuit. Problem is, it is located 150km from Melbourne - hence the low crowd a week or so ago. Anyone that was there will say the event didn't have a lot of 'atmosphere'.

What rounds are staged as an 'event' or 'festival'? Darwin, Adelaide, Townsville, Hamilton, Indy. No coincidence that these are also the best attended events and the ones most people would like to go to (Except of course Bathurst, but that race speaks for itself!).
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Old 21 Sep 2009, 21:58 (Ref:2545514)   #56
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Thanks V8Bobby for your comments and welcome to the forums. Although I don’t completely agree with your street track sentiments or track upgrade views, it is refreshing to see a balanced opinion.
Cheers mate. I've enjoyed reading these forums and like reading everyone's point of view coming from their perspective.

At the end of the day, it's our passion for motorsport that has made all levels of motorsport in this country a success and that is what has made some great reading here!
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 02:57 (Ref:2545638)   #57
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PI is a fantastic circuit. Problem is, it is located 150km from Melbourne - hence the low crowd a week or so ago. Anyone that was there will say the event didn't have a lot of 'atmosphere'.
But Winton is 200km from Melbourne and draws a larger crowd and has an atmosphere similar to Bathurst.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 03:10 (Ref:2545645)   #58
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I also prefer to watch permenant circuits, but street races work because they can be placed in an existing large population, near public transport and easy access for corporate guests. PI is a fantastic circuit. Problem is, it is located 150km from Melbourne - hence the low crowd a week or so ago. Anyone that was there will say the event didn't have a lot of 'atmosphere'.
The low crowd probably had very little to do with the distance from Melbourne. There are plenty of other problems that kept many away.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 03:38 (Ref:2545653)   #59
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But Winton is 200km from Melbourne and draws a larger crowd and has an atmosphere similar to Bathurst.
Geees I nearly choked on that one . . . having been to both numberous times, there is nothing about Winton that puts it in the same category at Bathurst . . . well maybe the weather sometimes.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 04:22 (Ref:2545668)   #60
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VESA - No matter what we all think (hey, I am a motorsport purist), the sport is where it is today because of money. An Adelaide or Townsville or (we will see) Homebush is going to attract a much larger crowd than a Phillip Island. More people equals more money. Recouping the sanction fee by the promoter is easier, selling naming rights to an event is easier.

Don't forget that the teams only survive through sponsorship. At the end of the day, sponsors will pay according to how many of their potential customers they can 'touch' and the difference they think the sponsorship will make to their bottom line. Bigger crowds and viewing audience, the more reasons teams have to justify the $$$ they are demanding.

I also prefer to watch permenant circuits, but street races work because they can be placed in an existing large population, near public transport and easy access for corporate guests. PI is a fantastic circuit. Problem is, it is located 150km from Melbourne - hence the low crowd a week or so ago. Anyone that was there will say the event didn't have a lot of 'atmosphere'.

What rounds are staged as an 'event' or 'festival'? Darwin, Adelaide, Townsville, Hamilton, Indy. No coincidence that these are also the best attended events and the ones most people would like to go to (Except of course Bathurst, but that race speaks for itself!).
Well again that is all well and good and I'm sure most here would agree those street circuits bring a lot to the table.

However I think they are fools if they put all their eggs in that basket. The recent era of "new" street circuits started in 1975 here in the USA with the Long Beach GP and since there have been many others, some successful, some definitely not. The problem with street circuits is that you are subject to a whole litany of issues of costs and government involvement and also that of the local citizens.

So if I was V8SC I wouldn't be too quick to tar and feather permanent circuits.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 06:00 (Ref:2545690)   #61
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I wouldn't mind so much if some money was spent on the paying punters.

Everytime they spend some money on a circuit it is spent on pit facilities and corporate areas whilst Joe Average sits on the dirt on the hill, uses crappy toilets and has to eat expensive sh_t food.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 06:36 (Ref:2545697)   #62
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I don't think we will see too many more street circuits for the series anyway.

Qld has 2, Hidden Valley is a stones throw from the CBD, NSW have one, South Australia has on, Victoria has the Grand prix. Perth would be the last one if the government ever supported it...

Toby, fully agree with you. Every year you go to Symmonds Plains, they rave on about the money they have spent on upgrades but the paying customer doesn't see it.

They want Qld raceway to spend money on the circuit - imagine this is for permenant pit's which won't increase the spectacle or comfort (or lack there of) for the spectators. Anyone there this year who tried to get out of the sun?
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 07:54 (Ref:2545737)   #63
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Winton - the year they didn't run the V8's, they actually made more money. If this circuit is more financially viable without them, then they should be concentrating on the other classes. Winton is a great circuit that is booked out every day of the year and makes money. As far as V8's are concerned, it is just too far out of the way to attract a decent crowd to enable the circuit to recoup their costs of staging the round.
Interesting post there V8Bobby, Benalla Auto Club, the owners of Winton, have made a profit as a business for a very long time, sometimes that profit is boosted by the V8Supercars, and sometimes it isn't boosted quite as much.

Yes you are right Winton is booked out solidly most of the year, as are most of the permenant tracks in Australia.

As far as the crowds are concerned you are way off mark, yes the crowds were down this year, but all tracks had a downword spiral, something to do with the GFC (and that ain't the Geelong Footabal Club). As a matter of fact Winton traditionally has the largest or equal largest crowds of any of the PERMENANT tracks, so best get you facts right on this one.

Check your PM's.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 09:32 (Ref:2545788)   #64
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Geees I nearly choked on that one . . . having been to both numberous times, there is nothing about Winton that puts it in the same category at Bathurst . . . well maybe the weather sometimes.
Sorry about that Green one.

Nothing can match Bathurst because, well, Bathurst is Bathurst (I'm a 10 year veteran of the Mount by the way).

By atmosphere I'm talking about the heartland fan who camps for the entire event on site and all that which VE$A has tried to emulate at PI by organising the campground for the first time.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 12:27 (Ref:2545935)   #65
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They want Qld raceway to spend money on the circuit - imagine this is for permenant pit's which won't increase the spectacle or comfort (or lack there of) for the spectators. Anyone there this year who tried to get out of the sun?
Is it not VESA who are up in arms about the pits at both Qld Raceway and Waneroo? They want the money to be spent here before the spectators not the track owners.
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 22:00 (Ref:2546309)   #66
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Fix the pits

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Is it not VESA who are up in arms about the pits at both Qld Raceway and Waneroo? They want the money to be spent here before the spectators not the track owners.
This is a recording "scratch" This is a recording "scratch" This is a recording "Scratch"...


And the tracks want the focus on spectator upgrades? Like the fantastic ARDC spectator upgrades at the Creek???? The tracks, as you (and a couple of "Tontos") have pointed out numerous times, are booked solid all year and making terrific profits without Supercars.

So how much of these profits are being spent back on the "bread and butter racer" that is the sports backbone?? What facility upgrades and improvements are being carried out by the apparently faultless track owners and managers? Considering Supercars are a once a year "highlight" and not the life line and financial provider the weekly racer is, why are they not looked after by the tracks?

Old mate JT has not spent a $ on QR since he took over?

Talk about "banging on",Glass houses and rocks and stuff...
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Old 22 Sep 2009, 23:53 (Ref:2546335)   #67
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And the tracks want the focus on spectator upgrades? Like the fantastic ARDC spectator upgrades at the Creek???? The tracks, as you (and a couple of "Tontos") have pointed out numerous times, are booked solid all year and making terrific profits without Supercars.

So how much of these profits are being spent back on the "bread and butter racer" that is the sports backbone?? What facility upgrades and improvements are being carried out by the apparently faultless track owners and managers? Considering Supercars are a once a year "highlight" and not the life line and financial provider the weekly racer is, why are they not looked after by the tracks?
IMHO from all my travels around the world, Australian tracks leave a lot on the table in regards to customer service. In other words, customer service sucks in many cases. Whether as a competitor or a fan, the customer isn't considered important except for the money they have in hand. Not the way to go I think.

Probably I am spoiled by too many of the tracks I visit in America for work, where whether you are at the bottom or the top of the ladder you are treated as a guest and welcomed. Toilets are clean, food service is good, the pit and paddock is clean and kept up, etc. Paint and some toilet cleaner don't cost that much folks.

People will argue the point but I think by making some basic investments in certain areas, the tracks can realize more revenue. As a racer I don't like going to places that are a dump with the track falling apart and the paddock being a mess. And as a fan I don't like going to tracks that have no place to sit, crap food and overflowing toilets. If I feel that way, I'm sure others do as well and in many cases take their money elsewhere.
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 06:21 (Ref:2546396)   #68
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The tracks, as you (and a couple of "Tontos") have pointed out numerous times, are booked solid all year and making terrific profits without Supercars.
So why would the tracks pay the huge sums of money to appease V8SA who race one weekend a year?

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Old mate JT has not spent a $ on QR since he took over?
He doesn't own the and while street circuits are recieving regular Government handouts where is the incentive to dip into his own pocket?
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 06:55 (Ref:2546419)   #69
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So why would the tracks pay the huge sums of money to appease V8SA who race one weekend a year?
interesting point DRT, why do they, unless there are some furphys being spread in this thread.
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 07:41 (Ref:2546439)   #70
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He doesn't own the and while street circuits are recieving regular Government handouts where is the incentive to dip into his own pocket?
Track is owned by the Queensland Government and Tetley has a long term lease on the place.

JT has been putting some money, and quite a bit of it into Lakeside Park to get it into a workable condition, racetrack actually for the bottom end of town rather than the top end, although he's getting as many volunteers to help with the rehabilitation as possible there has still been a substantial investment. Like QR, Lakeside is leased by Queensland Raceways, in this instance from the Moreton Bay Regional Council. They've had some investment in Lakeside from Queensland Motorways. They've built a huge gantry over the front straight festooned with cameras and sensors, testing QMs technology for free-flow toll roads and also for speed camera monitoring similar to New South Wales where cameras take photos at strategic points along the major routes to see if you've travelled faster than 100/110 kph over long distances and checking your number plate for where to send the ticket.

Queensland Raceways may own significant portions of infrastructure at both venues, but not the venues themselves.
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 07:47 (Ref:2546446)   #71
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 08:07 (Ref:2546455)   #72
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Track is owned by the Queensland Government and Tetley has a long term lease on the place.

JT has been putting some money, and quite a bit of it into Lakeside Park to get it into a workable condition, racetrack actually for the bottom end of town rather than the top end, although he's getting as many volunteers to help with the rehabilitation as possible there has still been a substantial investment. Like QR, Lakeside is leased by Queensland Raceways, in this instance from the Moreton Bay Regional Council. They've had some investment in Lakeside from Queensland Motorways. They've built a huge gantry over the front straight festooned with cameras and sensors, testing QMs technology for free-flow toll roads and also for speed camera monitoring similar to New South Wales where cameras take photos at strategic points along the major routes to see if you've travelled faster than 100/110 kph over long distances and checking your number plate for where to send the ticket.

Queensland Raceways may own significant portions of infrastructure at both venues, but not the venues themselves.
But what is the business model that would see a permanent race circuit start from scratch? Invest a lazy $100m in a place, build the infrastructure, make it busy 360 days a year, run every single drop out of it...

And the payoff for the investor is in 25 years from commencement, close the circuit, sell the land off as housing/industrial development, and at that point, realise the profit from owning the venture

What companies in this day and age have a 25 year time horizon for any investment?

If you think about it, the demise of Amaroo Park and of Oran Park ended up with similar outcomes, even if they commenced with different intentions...
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 08:25 (Ref:2546460)   #73
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interesting point DRT, why do they, unless there are some furphys being spread in this thread.
The tracks are able to use the exposure the V8's give to leverage advertising (billboards) and other such things.

Also helps when dealing with various government groups if you can quote an appearence by the high profile V8 circus to get things organised.
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 08:58 (Ref:2546475)   #74
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This is a recording "scratch" This is a recording "scratch" This is a recording "Scratch"...


And the tracks want the focus on spectator upgrades? Like the fantastic ARDC spectator upgrades at the Creek???? The tracks, as you (and a couple of "Tontos") have pointed out numerous times, are booked solid all year and making terrific profits without Supercars.

So how much of these profits are being spent back on the "bread and butter racer" that is the sports backbone?? What facility upgrades and improvements are being carried out by the apparently faultless track owners and managers? Considering Supercars are a once a year "highlight" and not the life line and financial provider the weekly racer is, why are they not looked after by the tracks?

Old mate JT has not spent a $ on QR since he took over?

Talk about "banging on",Glass houses and rocks and stuff...
Go and ask the Winton CEO how much the Benalla Auto Club, the owners of Winton have spent in uprgades over the last 10 years, most of which were to appease the V8 Suprcar people, remember Winton is owned by a Car Club of about 500 members, not some Government or a wealthy benefactor.

Things like:
  • The1 kilometre track extension
  • The new pit lane
  • The new pit garages (V8 garages)
  • About $600,000 on power upgrades to the V8 garages
  • The Media Centre
  • The Corporate Building
  • Sewerage upgrades so that sewerage generated by all those V8 fans is processed on-site without having to have trucks come in during the event to pump out the septics (no town sewerage out there)
  • A new bridge on Fox Street (a council road) so the V8 B-Doubles can get in
  • The very new Fujitsu Garages, built this year in the pit area
  • The new six lane entrance off the old Hume Highway
  • Onsite accomodation for the volunteer officials

and so on and so forth, I don't think I need to go on. Just remember most of the money spent is to keep Cochrane et el happy and it is Club Members money.

So go and take your dirty swipes somewhere else.
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Old 23 Sep 2009, 09:33 (Ref:2546496)   #75
peckstar
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Join Date: May 2004
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
So what you are saying Trev is we should thank TC for all those wonderful improvements Winton has made and the Ronke's are only doing it because they want to make him happy and not because they want to improve things for their members competitors and spectators.

In thats case im glad TC is here to make things happen, or we would still be stuck with that nasty old out dated Winton
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