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Old 16 Dec 2009, 15:45 (Ref:2600823)   #51
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I don't think this is going to happen: we surely gonna have a change after so many years, but I hope the new car will be a serious one
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Old 16 Dec 2009, 17:11 (Ref:2600864)   #52
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We'll just have to wait until Ben Bowlby is ready to present his design.
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Old 17 Dec 2009, 07:49 (Ref:2601177)   #53
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dunno, methikns some more radical changes are to be expected; and I'm not completely sure Bowlby's design will be the selected one. As Miller said there are more potential providers, aside delta and obviously Dallara.
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Old 17 Dec 2009, 15:27 (Ref:2601353)   #54
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According to Curt Cavin's latest on the subject (published this morning), the Bowlby design resembles the orignal Craig Breedlove Spirit of America. And the league still isn't sure which way to go.

I personally think that any true design revolution in the league would involve writing some rules and allowing teams to build their own cars so there would be excitement about new designs every season. Of course, that'll never happen, because the R&D to develop something that is both fast and safe from square one in this economy would be cost prohibitive to teams to do...besides, to recoup that $$$, you would have to be able to build more and sell them.

Here's the article:

http://www.indystar.com/article/200...ke-new-approach
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Old 17 Dec 2009, 19:11 (Ref:2601507)   #55
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According to Curt Cavin's latest on the subject (published this morning), the Bowlby design resembles the orignal Craig Breedlove Spirit of America. And the league still isn't sure which way to go.

I personally think that any true design revolution in the league would involve writing some rules and allowing teams to build their own cars so there would be excitement about new designs every season. Of course, that'll never happen, because the R&D to develop something that is both fast and safe from square one in this economy would be cost prohibitive to teams to do...besides, to recoup that $$$, you would have to be able to build more and sell them.

Here's the article:

http://www.indystar.com/article/200...ke-new-approach
I really don't understand why people are so scared that they are resistant to opening up the chassis regs for development by all comers. It worked before and would work again.

Under the current monopoly a new dallara is around $700,000 which I think some competition could do better.

Personally I think the whole world has gone insane. The irl with an idea to run turbocharged wingless formula fords and the stillborn GreenPrix wanting to desecrate Panoz DP01's with enormous battery packs to go electric car racing.

Not the excitement I'm looking for, either as a spectator or driver.
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Old 17 Dec 2009, 19:28 (Ref:2601512)   #56
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I really don't understand why people are so scared that they are resistant to opening up the chassis regs for development by all comers. It worked before and would work again.

Under the current monopoly a new dallara is around $700,000 which I think some competition could do better.
A Dallara can be gotten new for $330,000, mountainstar...don't know where you got the $700,000 figure, but it is incorrect.
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Old 17 Dec 2009, 20:10 (Ref:2601530)   #57
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A Dallara can be gotten new for $330,000, mountainstar...don't know where you got the $700,000 figure, but it is incorrect.
AFAIK the cost when all said and done comes out to around $700k.
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Old 17 Dec 2009, 20:18 (Ref:2601534)   #58
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I really don't understand why people are so scared that they are resistant to opening up the chassis regs for development by all comers. It worked before and would work again.
I think that you need to read what I wrote...

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I personally think that any true design revolution in the league would involve writing some rules and allowing teams to build their own cars so there would be excitement about new designs every season.

Of course, that'll never happen, because the R&D to develop something that is both fast and safe from square one in this economy would be cost prohibitive to teams to do...besides, to recoup that $$$, you would have to be able to build more and sell them.
I love the diversity of chassis and builders in sportscar endurance racing...that's why I love watching the ALMS...and I would love to have multiple builders be allowed to create the next chapter of Indy Cars.

Let's face it...Panoz has laid off virtually all of their designers and engineers, so they don't have the resources to build a new chassis, nor the staff to redesign the DP01 to run on ovals...They're out...

Lola might jump into the fray, but IIRC, they are going to try to get in on the F1 action, aren't they, in addition to their LMP1s and LMP2s...would they put this new project on their plate as well?

Swift would be a candidate, as would Dome...

But who is going to drop millions of $$$ into design, R&D, etc. in this economy to sell cars to a series in which you are splitting a 22-24 driver/car pie many ways if you have multiple chassis builders?

How many cars did Riley & Scott sell in the IRL when they were a builder? 3 or 4 at the most? They lost their shirts on the project!

Panoz didn't sell another car after the midway point of the 2005 season and ultimately disappeared from the series when everyone switched to Dallaras.

I don't "fear" multiple builders...I welcome it!...

But I'm also a realist, and it just won't happen in this economic climate.
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Old 18 Dec 2009, 02:56 (Ref:2601712)   #59
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Personally I think the whole world has gone insane. The irl with an idea to run turbocharged wingless formula fords...
You don't think making the cars more challenging to the driver would improve the sport? I assume you know that CART used to run slightly negative rear wing angles at Indy, to match the direction of air flow and minimize drag. In other words, it was entirely underbody downforce. I think a wingless formula, if they do it, will be the best decision they've ever made. Bringing back the turbo four-banger formula which worked very well forty years ago would also be a great move. It's a standard item in most manufacturer's lines, and if the World Engine gets any traction, there will be a source for them which may be in common with other series, improving the cost structure.

There isn't much in the IRL I find appealing, but I if they do this, they will probably get me back.
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Old 18 Dec 2009, 06:36 (Ref:2601743)   #60
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Panoz didn't sell another car after the midway point of the 2005 season and ultimately disappeared from the series when everyone switched to Dallaras.
Why did Panoz disappear and Dallara become the dominant chassis? Was the Dallara cheaper to buy, easier to run?
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Old 18 Dec 2009, 07:05 (Ref:2601752)   #61
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You don't think making the cars more challenging to the driver would improve the sport? I assume you know that CART used to run slightly negative rear wing angles at Indy, to match the direction of air flow and minimize drag. In other words, it was entirely underbody downforce. I think a wingless formula, if they do it, will be the best decision they've ever made. Bringing back the turbo four-banger formula which worked very well forty years ago would also be a great move. It's a standard item in most manufacturer's lines, and if the World Engine gets any traction, there will be a source for them which may be in common with other series, improving the cost structure.

There isn't much in the IRL I find appealing, but I if they do this, they will probably get me back.
I don't think another spec series will make it challenging for the driver and I don't see that tact as being progress towards a dynamic future of innovation.

I think there is more to this chassis deal than meets the eye.

I don't find anything at all appealing about the irl, especially since the hulmangeorge clan still owns it, but even if that goes, I'm not seeing anything exciting here.
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Old 18 Dec 2009, 07:19 (Ref:2601755)   #62
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The currant economic conditions won't allow for multiple chassis but by 2012 things should have improved, unless there is going to be a double dip recession, so it would make some sense for the IRL to start courting some other manufacturers with a view to building new chassis. Otherwise we are just going to have another spec series, the novelty of which will soon wear off. There is a rumour that Lola might be building a car for USF1, they would be a good candidate, what with their history in US open wheel racing.
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Old 18 Dec 2009, 13:40 (Ref:2601896)   #63
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Wingless doesn't mean downforceless. Anyway, current Indy cars have too much downforce on 1.5-mile ovals. And wings create lots of drag, which goes against fuel efficiency.
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Old 18 Dec 2009, 15:16 (Ref:2601929)   #64
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Why did Panoz disappear and Dallara become the dominant chassis? Was the Dallara cheaper to buy, easier to run?
Firestone changed their tires to a harder compound that the Dallara seemed to handle well, but the Panoz chassis just couldn't get any grip with the harder compound without really cranking in downforce, which hurt their speed and competitiveness.

Rahal Letterman Racing dropped their Panoz cars following the race at Texas in 2006 and by that time, Ganassi was running the Panoz only on road courses, leaving Fernandez Racing as the only team driving the Panoz chassis.

No one ran them in 2007

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Old 19 Dec 2009, 19:55 (Ref:2602478)   #65
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I don't think another spec series will make it challenging for the driver and I don't see that tact as being progress towards a dynamic future of innovation.

I think there is more to this chassis deal than meets the eye.

I don't find anything at all appealing about the irl, especially since the hulmangeorge clan still owns it, but even if that goes, I'm not seeing anything exciting here.
The owner's group was talking about areas that are fixed, and areas open to development. That sounds like a reasonable approach until the sport returns to health.

Maybe my expectations have fallen so far that something like this becomes cause for hope. Probably the greatest cause for hope is the team owners finally starting to take a little initiative. The sport was at its best when it was run by the people with gasoline running in their veins, and and this could be a small step back toward that.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 04:41 (Ref:2603048)   #66
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If the teams just had to design their own front wings and side winglets it would be something that might make them a little different in appearance and allow some ingenuity with a spec chassis.
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Old 12 Jan 2010, 13:17 (Ref:2612156)   #67
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I don't know if it's the right thread, but some engine news...

VW rules out IndyCar programme
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Old 12 Jan 2010, 14:56 (Ref:2612195)   #68
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I would have created a new thread, but anyway. VAG wants to join a strong IndyCar, they don't want to be the ones who push it to first level. So it's either the Fiat/Chrysler group or just Honda.
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Old 12 Jan 2010, 16:08 (Ref:2612238)   #69
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I don't know if it's the right thread, but some engine news...

VW rules out IndyCar programme
If, according to that article, the IRL are to keep identical chassis for the next generation rules but open up engine competition and use turbocharged units as well and even though this initially sounds interesting, they will just be delaying the inevitable as a particular engine will become more favourable with the spec chassis and everyone will want to use that combination and then the IRL is back to square one. They need to seriously think about running more than one chassis.
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Old 12 Jan 2010, 18:31 (Ref:2612317)   #70
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I don't know if it's the right thread, but some engine news...

VW rules out IndyCar programme
VW is very targeted with their motorsports programs and also the current people in charge are tight fisted as well. The ROI is not there with the irl.
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Old 12 Jan 2010, 19:56 (Ref:2612365)   #71
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If, according to that article, the IRL are to keep identical chassis for the next generation rules but open up engine competition and use turbocharged units as well and even though this initially sounds interesting, they will just be delaying the inevitable as a particular engine will become more favourable with the spec chassis and everyone will want to use that combination and then the IRL is back to square one. They need to seriously think about running more than one chassis.

Using your logic, one chassis will be favourable, and everyone will want to use that combination, and then the IRL is back at square one.
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Old 12 Jan 2010, 23:25 (Ref:2612477)   #72
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The IRL has little money, sponsors, media coverage and fan community. How could be expect four carmakers to want to supply high-tech engines and three coachbuilders to want to develop revolutionary chassis from scratch for a 20-car grid?
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Old 13 Jan 2010, 01:30 (Ref:2612520)   #73
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Using your logic, one chassis will be favourable, and everyone will want to use that combination, and then the IRL is back at square one.
CART/Champcar was incredibly successful, with multi-chassis, engine and tyre combinations. After Reynard went bust Champcar went down the single chassis-engine-tyre route, in order to save on costs, first with the Lola B03-00, which was replaced with the DP-01, both with Ford Cosworth engines and Bridgestone tyres; the rest as they say is history.
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Old 13 Jan 2010, 20:52 (Ref:2612954)   #74
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Hence Why I think they should forget the turbo engines and adopt Formula Nippon engines. DTM is looking to integrate with Super GT, which use FN engines (and are supposedly conform with LM 2011 rules). So there you have Toyota and Nissan besides Honda, as well as Audi (read... VW) and Mercedes and maybe BMW would join in.
Just my $0.02
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Old 13 Jan 2010, 21:21 (Ref:2612971)   #75
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Hence Why I think they should forget the turbo engines and adopt Formula Nippon engines. DTM is looking to integrate with Super GT, which use FN engines (and are supposedly conform with LM 2011 rules). So there you have Toyota and Nissan besides Honda, as well as Audi (read... VW) and Mercedes and maybe BMW would join in.
Just my $0.02
But how does that address the problem of a single spec chassis, which is at the heart of the IRL's problem?
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