2012 IndyCar silly season - Page 3

**GTRMagic** · 25 Sep 2011, 09:04 (Ref:2960587)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesRamone

I like Alesi but I predict he will not qualify

How sure are you of 33 cars on the grid at Indy?

marcostraz · 25 Sep 2011, 15:02 (Ref:2960692)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

How sure are you of 33 cars on the grid at Indy?

I'm 100% sure that we will se 33 cars at Indy...

JamesRamone · 25 Sep 2011, 17:04 (Ref:2960733)

New chassis so I suppose you could have a point GTR Magic, but I would be suprised.

Canada ALMS fan · 26 Sep 2011, 02:21 (Ref:2960942)

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcostraz

I'm 100% sure that we will se 33 cars at Indy...

And not a single car more... On the bright side, if Lotus show, Alesi is in the show (he is one of my faves

)

marcostraz · 26 Sep 2011, 07:14 (Ref:2960981)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

And not a single car more... On the bright side, if Lotus show, Alesi is in the show (he is one of my faves

)

I think that we will se a couple of cars more...

csirl · 30 Sep 2011, 14:27 (Ref:2962967)

Its likely that the 500 in 2012 will have the min. number of cars. I doubt that there is the manufacturing capacity to get any more of the new cars produced in 2012. Numbers will go up in 2013 as more cars get built. So, if Alesi enters the 500, he'll probably be on the grid. He's looks a lot heavier than when he last raced - 10 years ago - so I'd imagine he'd have to start a major fitness regime before he's ready to race again. If he does get fit, his natural talent should show through, but its difficult to imagine him winning his first ever oval race.

Adam Carroll has been making a lot of noise about being a full time Indycar racer in 2012. All the report suggest that he and his family are currently packing their bags for a permanent move to the USA and a permanent Indycar drive. Over the past year he's taken some time off for family reasons - done the odd GP2 etc. race. Anyone know what team he'll be with?

Mr Pink · 30 Sep 2011, 14:46 (Ref:2962976)

If that's true about Adam Carroll it's definetly a quality addition to the grid!

Carsandmotorracing · 1 Oct 2011, 00:54 (Ref:2963297)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

If that's true about Adam Carroll it's definetly a quality addition to the grid!

+1

**GTRMagic** · 2 Oct 2011, 23:40 (Ref:2964535)

Looks like Dollar General isnt coming back to SFR next season...

mountainstar · 3 Oct 2011, 02:10 (Ref:2964559)

Seems amazing that suddenly ed carpenter and sarah fisher racing find an amazing boost of speed to win a race, of course right when Dollar General is bailing out. Amazing.

**GTRMagic** · 3 Oct 2011, 02:37 (Ref:2964570)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Seems amazing that suddenly ed carpenter and sarah fisher racing find an amazing boost of speed to win a race, of course right when Dollar General is bailing out. Amazing.

They were quick at Indy too... presumably their NASCAR backing is slurping up all the budget?

Carsandmotorracing · 3 Oct 2011, 06:11 (Ref:2964617)

Wow, he wins and niw they leave, stupid asses.

mountainstar · 3 Oct 2011, 16:58 (Ref:2965053)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

Wow, he wins and niw they leave, stupid asses.

It's called Return On Investment and Dollar General isn't getting any, so away they go. Who cares if they won Kentucky, if almost no one saw or heard about it.

From figures I heard the true media value of a single car irl sponsorship is worth less than $1 million, yet teams are looking for $5 to $10 million to run a car. That's why the series is dependent on team owners that can structure B2B deals like penske or pay drivers.

**GTRMagic** · 3 Oct 2011, 22:09 (Ref:2965211)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

Wow, he wins and niw they leave, stupid asses.

Story @ Autosport

As for whether the sponsorship works... well Dollar General have been with SFR a little while now, knew what they were getting into with a smaller team.. they arguably have the same issue in NASCAR, with backing of some second tier series events, and race weekend sponsorships on some mid-to-back cars in at least 2 of the 3 series.

I presume the Dollar General company isnt big enough to be a full flight, all season sponsor in any of their chosen domains.

Maybe they are just keeping on with selling cheap but cheerful products and backing cheap but cheerful motorsport deals.

Carsandmotorracing · 4 Oct 2011, 02:57 (Ref:2965259)

It just saddens me how much media attention NASCAR gets and how little IndyCar gets in the U.S. And ya know what, it's all Tony George's fault.

mountainstar · 4 Oct 2011, 05:05 (Ref:2965296)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

It just saddens me how much media attention NASCAR gets and how little IndyCar gets in the U.S. And ya know what, it's all Tony George's fault.

I remember growing up that everywhere in the USA, most people could name at least a few CART drivers and fans actually watched the races on TV or went to events. It definitely had more of a fan base up north, on the Pacific coast and Canada, but some people down south were at least familiar with it. Nascar had it's main pull down south and a wee bit in other areas.

These days, outside of a few people in indy and a few motorsport nerds that read Autosport and Motorsport, the general public in the USA has no clue about any of the races or drivers. Maybe some might identify panica patrick as a irl driver, but that's it. The general public has no idea who Dario Francheeki is or Danny Wheldon is. Not a clue. Almost no one watches on Tv and attendance, even with free or give away tickets is pretty appalling.

tony george killed the goose that laid the golden egg. He sowed fear, anger, dissension, greed amongst the sport and got it back in spades.

Carsandmotorracing · 4 Oct 2011, 06:18 (Ref:2965317)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I remember growing up that everywhere in the USA, most people could name at least a few CART drivers and fans actually watched the races on TV or went to events. It definitely had more of a fan base up north, on the Pacific coast and Canada, but some people down south were at least familiar with it. Nascar had it's main pull down south and a wee bit in other areas.

These days, outside of a few people in indy and a few motorsport nerds that read Autosport and Motorsport, the general public in the USA has no clue about any of the races or drivers. Maybe some might identify panica patrick as a irl driver, but that's it. The general public has no idea who Dario Francheeki is or Danny Wheldon is. Not a clue. Almost no one watches on Tv and attendance, even with free or give away tickets is pretty appalling.

tony george killed the goose that laid the golden egg. He sowed fear, anger, dissension, greed amongst the sport and got it back in spades.

Yes it sucks. Although, Indycar is still my 2nd favourite series behind F1, I just can't get enough of it, especially with Scott Dixon and his success, and Wade C. is a star on the rise.

And to be honest, I can't see what TG was complaining about, CART did run half oval/road course, then he decided to go back to what CART was doing in 2005, made himself look like a hypocrite and idiot..

Jacques Rabbit · 4 Oct 2011, 18:54 (Ref:2965714)

Some thoughts:

1. Dollar General need more than bunnies and rainbows and the love of Trackforum to keep funding an IndyCar program. You'll see their future motorsport plans soon, and anyone who says they don't make better sense than a part-time IndyCar effort and a Nationwide program with a "series regular" is absolutely kidding themselves with their own biases. They are looking to expand in the next few years and that means realigning their marketing to be more effective. Ed Carpenter and Sarah Fisher aren't selling jack **** to anyone outside of Marion County.

2. NASCAR gets more attention because more people care. More people care because NASCAR found a way to have a better product than IndyCar. You can blame whoever the hell you want for that (to place it solely on Tony George is naïve, though. Plenty of team owners, track promoters, people from NASCAR and F1, etc. did a lot to make IndyCar less attractive). But it's not just the less attractiveness of IndyCar; NASCAR didn't inherit people by dumb luck. They made their product better while IndyCar failed. You have to give NASCAR credit. Every race is the Indy 500 in NASCAR because they know how to make a big-event, big-story feel out of anything. Their racing's unpredictable, and people enjoy that, they get a lot of different race winners in a given season, they sell their drivers well, and they do it all while still having a grassroots, homey atmosphere at the actual race tracks. It's F1 in spectacle, it's the local dirt track in attitude. Talk about Americana.

3. I'm not convinced we would be any better off if it hadn't been for the split. CART was horribly run. But whatever. It is what it is, and it's a shame. You can't change the fact CART had problems, and you can't change the fact Tony George and his buddies conceived the IRL which just created more problems. If we're still blaming events of the 90s for why sponsors leave in 2011, we're all a bunch of idiots. There was plenty of time to recover, plenty of time for CART to just step up and kill the IRL off, or whatever the "ideal solution" would have been. It's not like we have this perfect series no one can find because we buried ourselves. We have **** caused by people there today and now and we can't sell it to enough people.

ptclaus98 · 5 Oct 2011, 02:44 (Ref:2965887)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

Some thoughts:

1. Dollar General need more than bunnies and rainbows and the love of Trackforum to keep funding an IndyCar program. You'll see their future motorsport plans soon, and anyone who says they don't make better sense than a part-time IndyCar effort and a Nationwide program with a "series regular" is absolutely kidding themselves with their own biases. They are looking to expand in the next few years and that means realigning their marketing to be more effective. Ed Carpenter and Sarah Fisher aren't selling jack **** to anyone outside of Marion County.

2. NASCAR gets more attention because more people care. More people care because NASCAR found a way to have a better product than IndyCar. You can blame whoever the hell you want for that (to place it solely on Tony George is naïve, though. Plenty of team owners, track promoters, people from NASCAR and F1, etc. did a lot to make IndyCar less attractive). But it's not just the less attractiveness of IndyCar; NASCAR didn't inherit people by dumb luck. They made their product better while IndyCar failed. You have to give NASCAR credit. Every race is the Indy 500 in NASCAR because they know how to make a big-event, big-story feel out of anything. Their racing's unpredictable, and people enjoy that, they get a lot of different race winners in a given season, they sell their drivers well, and they do it all while still having a grassroots, homey atmosphere at the actual race tracks. It's F1 in spectacle, it's the local dirt track in attitude. Talk about Americana.

3. I'm not convinced we would be any better off if it hadn't been for the split. CART was horribly run. But whatever. It is what it is, and it's a shame. You can't change the fact CART had problems, and you can't change the fact Tony George and his buddies conceived the IRL which just created more problems. If we're still blaming events of the 90s for why sponsors leave in 2011, we're all a bunch of idiots. There was plenty of time to recover, plenty of time for CART to just step up and kill the IRL off, or whatever the "ideal solution" would have been. It's not like we have this perfect series no one can find because we buried ourselves. We have **** caused by people there today and now and we can't sell it to enough people.

Fantastic post.

Canada ALMS fan · 5 Oct 2011, 02:56 (Ref:2965892)

The majority of NASCAR fans don't care about technology or driver skill. They want to sit on their fat asses, get drunk, cheer for their favourite number, and watch cars "wreck". If you look at the demographics a single ALMS, Indycar, or F1 fan is about as valuable to sponsor as 10 NASCRAP fans. Indycar is in trouble because it is not sexy to those of us whom the NASCAR product doesn't resonate with. Next year it gets a little better but now they need to get rid of Barnhart.

marcostraz · 5 Oct 2011, 11:53 (Ref:2966064)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

They made their product better while IndyCar failed. You have to give NASCAR credit. Every race is the Indy 500 in NASCAR because they know how to make a big-event, big-story feel out of anything.

Why and/or where the NASCAR product is better? What's decision of NASCAR was better than IndyCar's? Lenght of races? Promotion? TV? Concerts? Personally I don't want an Indy 500 every race...I want the Indy 500 and I want XXX other races...I think that IndyCar has to promote its product better, but should not make a copy of NASCAR...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

Their racing's unpredictable

Unpredictable? At least half of the races of NASCAR are decided by fuel strategy...I heard thousands of complaints from IndyCar fans about fuel strategy...now, where is the mistake? In NASCAR fuel strategies are good and make races unpredictable and in IndyCar are bad? Let's resolve these two different considerations...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

Talk about Americana.

Americana? And why and how? We have some good american drivers (and next we'll see another good oyung driver), next year we'll have a big american engine manufacturer, 95% of races are in USA (+ 2 in Canada)...why should the series be more american? I want to see the best drivers, not the best american drivers...

Jacques Rabbit · 5 Oct 2011, 17:16 (Ref:2966187)

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcostraz

Why and/or where the NASCAR product is better? What's decision of NASCAR was better than IndyCar's? Lenght of races? Promotion? TV? Concerts? Personally I don't want an Indy 500 every race...I want the Indy 500 and I want XXX other races...I think that IndyCar has to promote its product better, but should not make a copy of NASCAR...

Unpredictable? At least half of the races of NASCAR are decided by fuel strategy...I heard thousands of complaints from IndyCar fans about fuel strategy...now, where is the mistake? In NASCAR fuel strategies are good and make races unpredictable and in IndyCar are bad? Let's resolve these two different considerations...

Americana? And why and how? We have some good american drivers (and next we'll see another good oyung driver), next year we'll have a big american engine manufacturer, 95% of races are in USA (+ 2 in Canada)...why should the series be more american? I want to see the best drivers, not the best american drivers...

I think you missed what my post was saying. I was not saying Indy needs to become NASCAR; I was highlighting how NASCAR made their product appeal to the American public more than IndyCar did or can. We all have our personal tastes and I'm certainly not on the "all-oval, all-American" bandwagon or I'd be at a different forum than this one (and likewise, I'm not on the Panoz DP01 reunion tour committee, either). At the end of the day, NASCAR has a lot more appeal in the U.S. than IndyCar, and I think a lot of people like to 1) view NASCAR fans as ignorant for not watching IndyCar which is totally false and 2) view NASCAR as getting "lucky" as if Tony George forced everyone to go watch NASCAR. I think those two views fall short of the whole truth, and I was trying to show that.

Regardless, we're here today with our series. We have a niche sport that's failing to appeal to a broader fan-base, and alienating the niche it already divided in half. The steps forward we take now are still marred by two steps backward, and that has nothing to do with 1996 anymore. It has to do with 2011...

...and somehow, this all finds its way in a thread about the 2012 silly season.

mac · 6 Oct 2011, 03:05 (Ref:2966428)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

If we're still blaming events of the 90s for why sponsors leave in 2011, we're all a bunch of idiots. There was plenty of time to recover, plenty of time for CART to just step up and kill the IRL off, or whatever the "ideal solution" would have been. It's not like we have this perfect series no one can find because we buried ourselves. We have **** caused by people there today and now and we can't sell it to enough people.

Good point... However, I believe a lot of the frustration today is based in the fact that the unification was seen as a perfect opportunity to guide the sport in a more positive direction that captured the spirit of the former "glory days"...

Tony George undeniably started the rot... Tony George had a better "vision" than anyone else... And guess what? It didn't work...

But instead of unifying and starting all over again, harnessing concepts that actually appealed to fans (both casual and dedicated), concepts that had already worked... we get the sport's leaders running around in ever-decreasing circles, continually trying to re-invent the wheel, and attempting to create an open wheel lovechild of NASCAR and latter-day Champ Car...

I don't think anyone is suggesting for a moment that the current situation is entirely Tony George's fault - or that CART was immune from issues, either... However, almost undisputably George started it, he and his cronies destroyed it, and the current (or recent) administrations are flailing in their attempts to revive it.

Carsandmotorracing · 6 Oct 2011, 03:31 (Ref:2966434)

IndyCar will never be revived unless someone in NASCAR feels the series isin't going the way it should and starting their own series. Then and only then will the American public watch IndyCar more than NASCAR.

Jacques Rabbit · 6 Oct 2011, 14:32 (Ref:2966673)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

Good point... However, I believe a lot of the frustration today is based in the fact that the unification was seen as a perfect opportunity to guide the sport in a more positive direction that captured the spirit of the former "glory days"...

Tony George undeniably started the rot... Tony George had a better "vision" than anyone else... And guess what? It didn't work...

But instead of unifying and starting all over again, harnessing concepts that actually appealed to fans (both casual and dedicated), concepts that had already worked... we get the sport's leaders running around in ever-decreasing circles, continually trying to re-invent the wheel, and attempting to create an open wheel lovechild of NASCAR and latter-day Champ Car...

I don't think anyone is suggesting for a moment that the current situation is entirely Tony George's fault - or that CART was immune from issues, either... However, almost undisputably George started it, he and his cronies destroyed it, and the current (or recent) administrations are flailing in their attempts to revive it.

I can agree with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

IndyCar will never be revived unless someone in NASCAR feels the series isin't going the way it should and starting their own series. Then and only then will the American public watch IndyCar more than NASCAR.

Not necessarily. If people stopped watching NASCAR for whatever reason, that doesn't mean they will replace it with IndyCar unless IndyCar offers them something worth watching.

But I have to pose the question: do we need the American public to watch IndyCar more than NASCAR?

I think this sport can be viable as a niche sport. If and only if it exploits all the hardcore racing fans there are.

And right now, it's not doing that well; in fact, it's putting most of us off with each and every headline.

I think IndyCar's problem, personally, is that it's a sport that won't appeal to the masses, but insists on trying with failed gimmicks, and in the process, alienates the only people who still could care about it.

Their ambition exceeds reality, and their ambition is met with botched effort.

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