[Rumours] Groundhog Day’s Hamilton vs Masi - P45s at the ready?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Brundle has a 25 year broadcasting career, Saward 35-40 years as a journalist? crmalcolm cherry picks two quotes? Compelling evidence.

I agree with Akrapovic about Brundle being a Verstappen groupie.

'Cherry pick two quotes'? The post was in response to a claim that Brundle and Saward are 'groupies' (whatever that actually means?). I presented an example from each that shows they make balanced comments, not necessarily biased in Hamilton's favour at all times.

What it has to be remembered is that Hamilton has been on the grid for 15 years, and in that time he has been very successful. So if you look back through any comments regarding his F1 career - is it any surprise that the majority of it would be positive towards him?

Likewise Verstappen - he has achieved a lot in his time so far, and so you will also find a lot of comment regarding how good he is as a driver.

If you really think that the two comments were the only examples of those individuals saying something that doesn't align with a Hamilton groupie, you clearly haven't read much of what they say.

[Mike Harte]

In response to Derwent about the wrestling that he/she may not be aware of, but for as long as I can recall, wrestling both in the UK and the States has been choreographed by the organisers and promoters. I happen to know this because it so happened that my father was a friend of a chap called Jack Dale, a past wrestler and then the Dale part of Dale Martin Promotions who, back in the 50s and 60s were the main promoters of wrestling in the UK.

By coincidence, my family and the Dale's were on the same cruise in the late 50s, and for a brief period I dated their daughter Jacquie; the romance didn't last long because I lived in North West London whilst they lived very near Brands hatch, and for young teenagers it was just too far away to keep going.

Anyway, Jack told us how they arranged everything in advance and the wrestlers virtually always followed the script, basically because if they didn't then they wouldn't get on the bill in the future. Another reason is that each and all the wrestlers needed to be aware of what the moves were going to be so that they weren't hurt or injured during the matches.

It was and still is purely entertainment for viewers and attendees, most of whom know that it is all fixed, but just enjoy the way that they can imagine that is all for real.

I suppose that one could call it escapism, but that world is far away from how F1 and circuit based racing is conducted as well as rallying.

[Derwent]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

In response to Derwent about the wrestling that he/she may not be aware of, but for as long as I can recall, wrestling both in the UK and the States has been choreographed by the organisers and promoters. I happen to know this because it so happened that my father was a friend of a chap called Jack Dale, a past wrestler and then the Dale part of Dale Martin Promotions who, back in the 50s and 60s were the main promoters of wrestling in the UK.

By coincidence, my family and the Dale's were on the same cruise in the late 50s, and for a brief period I dated their daughter Jacquie; the romance didn't last long because I lived in North West London whilst they lived very near Brands hatch, and for young teenagers it was just too far away to keep going.

Anyway, Jack told us how they arranged everything in advance and the wrestlers virtually always followed the script, basically because if they didn't then they wouldn't get on the bill in the future. Another reason is that each and all the wrestlers needed to be aware of what the moves were going to be so that they weren't hurt or injured during the matches.

It was and still is purely entertainment for viewers and attendees, most of whom know that it is all fixed, but just enjoy the way that they can imagine that is all for real.

I suppose that one could call it escapism, but that world is far away from how F1 and circuit based racing is conducted as well as rallying.

That is quite right. About 20 years ago there was a revival in wresting in the UK of a sort after the Hulk Hogan films etc and WWE. A friend's ten year old was really keen so they went to a show put on by a touring promotor. The lad enjoyed it and a few months later he saw that they were on again in a city about about 50 miles away and wanted to go again. They saw exactly the same show with the same moves and results. They never went again.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Derwent

That is quite right. About 20 years ago there was a revival in wresting in the UK of a sort after the Hulk Hogan films etc and WWE. A friend's ten year old was really keen so they went to a show put on by a touring promotor. The lad enjoyed it and a few months later he saw that they were on again in a city about about 50 miles away and wanted to go again. They saw exactly the same show with the same moves and results. They never went again.

Did you complain to the manager?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Derwent

Last night, while having a small malt before bed, I saw some wrestling on TV, the first time for many many years. I saw so many similarities to F1 in the amount of pointless hype, speeches by the combatants, referee, and others who seemed to have no real involvement, but all to hype up the crowd. How the crowd don't realise it was all fixed and yet get so wound up I can't understand. In fact the "build up" lasted until the first advert break.

F1 has been broadcast this way for over 30 years, just check out this telecast of the 1990 Australian GP. Grid walk interviews and a post-race press conference are nothing new (I wish they would go back to the old sit-down interviews, they still do them but they aren't broadcast, which seems pointless):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0lZR1DCUd8

Indeed, Walker even opens precedings with a recap of the controversial events at Suzuka, complete with interviews with both Senna and Prost.

Walker even hypes up the "action, action, action", as opposed to noting "now we still see racing cars precede around a loop at a moderate pace for 305 kilometres, feel free to wander off for a cup of tea, this is rather dull, the timing chart and lap chart is all you need to note the competitive order."

Ding, dong, you saw some real Grand Prix driving there! Voom, voom, past the two (backmarkers) in front of them.

- Murray Walker

Just totally absurd hype, isn't it? Dreadful...

Something like "the two leaders have overtaken the backmarkers" would be far more appropriate as you imply.

To think modern commentators dare imitate such antics with nonsensical statements "...and they are both out!" instead of "Hmm, it seems cars #33 and #44 have collided and are in the gravel trap. How curious, oh well, moving on. This may bring out the safety car, so entrants may consider pitting for tyres". Just disgraceful levels of pointless hype from Walker, Brundle and Croft as you imply.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness, prior to the last couple of minutes of the season, didnt most think this was one the best season in ages maybe even ever?

any other season in contention, and any one Charlie presided over, was also filled with contentious incidents that divided the fan base so those sorts of examples in and of themselves doesn't indicate a mess to me.

i still cant believe they managed to hold as many races as they did over the past two years.

i get that the last couple of minutes really put some people off, but i have to be honest, overall Masi and crew have done incredibly well given the circumstances.

an unpopular view though!

I agree with this also

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I agree with this also

I think it was a great season, but let’s not compare on track with off track.

On track it was pretty solid apart from Brazil, monza and Saudi, off track it was anything but.

A shameful display by team members after Silverstone, Saudi and Abu Dhabi, bad decisions in Spa, Saudi amongst other races.

Take away the few close fights on track and you’re left with bickering and bad decisions.

I’m not saying it was. A bad season, of course it wasn’t, but it does leave a sour taste in the mouth which has nothing to do with Max or Lewis

[S griffin]

Yes, I thought there were too many contentious decisions and acrimony that overshadowed the on track action. We enjoy a bit if tension between team rivals, but it went overboard too often. And I feel Masi seemed to want to please everyone and as a result made quite a few wrong decisions

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I think it was a great season, but let’s not compare on track with off track.

On track it was pretty solid apart from Brazil, monza and Saudi, off track it was anything but.

A shameful display by team members after Silverstone, Saudi and Abu Dhabi, bad decisions in Spa, Saudi amongst other races.

Take away the few close fights on track and you’re left with bickering and bad decisions.

I’m not saying it was. A bad season, of course it wasn’t, but it does leave a sour taste in the mouth which has nothing to do with Max or Lewis

I very much enjoyed this season personally.

Apologies that I don't have any links to BBC, Youtube or blogs to back this statement up.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I think it was a great season, but let’s not compare on track with off track.

On track it was pretty solid apart from Brazil, monza and Saudi, off track it was anything but.

A shameful display by team members after Silverstone, Saudi and Abu Dhabi, bad decisions in Spa, Saudi amongst other races.

Take away the few close fights on track and you’re left with bickering and bad decisions.

I’m not saying it was. A bad season, of course it wasn’t, but it does leave a sour taste in the mouth which has nothing to do with Max or Lewis

I think the off-track stuff did massively take away from the season. The three things I would point to are the sprint races and the awful way they were introduced, the social media toxicity from F1 fans which was far worse than I have ever seen before, and the final lap in Abu Dhabi. (There were other less significant problems such as the pathetic, childish whining of teams to Michael Masi). With just the first two I could still name 2021 the greatest season of all time, but the third was what stopped it being that. But the on-track action was the greatest ever, as almost every race was thrilling and the championship battle was incredible.

While I think the stewarding was poor this season, it wasn’t bad enough to ruin the season, bar the final race. You have selected Monza, Brazil and Saudi Arabia as the problems, which I can’t agree with. Monza I assume you are referring to the Hamilton and Verstappen incident, but that was just a mistake from Verstappen that took them both out, nothing malicious. It happens in racing and the stewards made the right call. In Brazil, they made the wrong call with Max forcing Lewis off, but that was one small incident that ultimately made no difference. And while Saudi was a bit messy from start to finish, the stewards did ultimately penalise Verstappen. I also think awarding half points in Spa was completely correct, for reasons that I go into more detail about in my blog:
https://f1frogblog.wordpress.com/202...s-in-spa-2021/
I also disliked the unnecessary red flags for the sake of entertainment, particularly in Baku, which I dislike and go into a bit of detail here:
https://f1frogblog.wordpress.com/202...-abu-dhabi-gp/

Overall, it was an amazing season, and the only thing that ruined it was the final lap. But despite that I would still rate it among the greatest ever. The best race was Hungary, as Alonso’s defence against Hamilton to help Ocon win was the one of the most exciting pieces of racing I have ever seen.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I very much enjoyed this season personally.

Apologies that I don't have any links to BBC, Youtube or blogs to back this statement up.

No need. You haven’t made an accusation that you can’t back up.

It was indeed a very enjoyable season

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Most maybe, but I wasn’t in the most.

I even tried to find reason in Spa! I tried. However, by the time we got to it, I was on a massive downer about the season. Was not looking forward to the final race at all. And, like a tool, still watched it.

more then fair...and i suspect having to watch over us muppets all season didnt help!

as always thank you to you and the other mods. our (over) enjoyment of the sport can sometimes come at the expense of your enjoyment. the sacrifice is appreciated!

[chillibowl]

back on topic, and a bit inspired by the new schummy thread.

if LH was to retire (which i dont think he will so just for discussion), how would that affect his legacy? obviously his records speak for themselves but strength of competition also matters.

those years where he had to fight (and often lost) to Mika probably enhances my opinion of Schummy so would that apply for HAM? or does Ham need to come back and take the fight to Max in order to cement his status?

or would retiring now be more like a TGF nearing the end of his career losing to Alonso in 2005. rather seen more as a passing of the torch rather then a mark on his legacy?

my answer...nothing will diminish Lewis' records but i very much need to see him come back and beat Max. if he does this he goes from one of the greats to all time undisputed champ so retiring now would effect his legacy to me.

[S griffin]

I do wonder if the FIA are deliberately leaving the decision till just before the season to try and force Hamilton to commit to the season, as he won't know the outcome till they are already at Bahrain for the first GP of the season. Maybe I'm just being too cynical

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I do wonder if the FIA are deliberately leaving the decision till just before the season to try and force Hamilton to commit to the season, as he won't know the outcome till they are already at Bahrain for the first GP of the season. Maybe I'm just being too cynical

i also think they totally did it intentionally. they need him back and are banking on the fact he wont leave his team at the last minute.

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I do wonder if the FIA are deliberately leaving the decision till just before the season to try and force Hamilton to commit to the season, as he won't know the outcome till they are already at Bahrain for the first GP of the season. Maybe I'm just being too cynical

I also agree that this is almost certainly deliberate. It has the dual benefit of forcing Hamilton's hand, but also knowing full well that the findings are likely to be outshone by the excitement of the 22' cars and events on track.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I do wonder if the FIA are deliberately leaving the decision till just before the season to try and force Hamilton to commit to the season, as he won't know the outcome till they are already at Bahrain for the first GP of the season. Maybe I'm just being too cynical

Cynical: yes.

TOO cynical: no.

[Alan52]

Autoweek newsletter ,which is not sensationalist or biased ,reports today that Masi has lost the confidence of the majority of team owners and drivers and will go.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Autoweek newsletter ,which is not sensationalist or biased ,reports today that Masi has lost the confidence of the majority of team owners and drivers and will go.

I guess we can go back to Naburu38’s post and his Zack Brown quote:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...wance/7360683/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Brown
“The current governance structure of the sport enables a situation where some teams, to protect their own competitive advantage, are effectively holding the sport hostage from what's best for the fans and therefore the sport at large.

The regulations, as they stand today, are heavily biased towards B teams/customer teams which is not in line with F1's principle of a group of genuine constructors competing with one another on even terms.

There are times when some smaller teams vote against their own interests to satisfy the agenda of their A team.

Those are strong words against the major teams.”

Let us see who would have voted:

Mercedes - Mercedes
McLaren - Mercedes
Aston Martin - Mercedes
Williams – Mercedes

RBR – Honda
Alpha Tauri – Honda

Ferrari – Ferrari
Alfa – Ferrari
Haas - Ferrari

Renault – Renault

So 4 Mercedes plus Ferrari as payback for engine penalty, seven votes.

Mercedes plus any one team five votes.

i.e. Keep Toto happy or you’re gone! Great motto for the next Race Director.

[Alan52]

I’m holding off on pronouncing any “Toto blackmails customer teams to get Masi removed”conspiracy theories until any actual evidence emerges.
Fairly certain if Red Bull and Ferrari sense Toto is railroading FIA they will scream it loudly.Either way there is no way the FIA can indefinitely wrap a cone of silence around whatever process they are going through.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I’m holding off on pronouncing any “Toto blackmails customer teams to get Masi removed”conspiracy theories until any actual evidence emerges.
Fairly certain if Red Bull and Ferrari sense Toto is railroading FIA they will scream it loudly.Either way there is no way the FIA can indefinitely wrap a cone of silence around whatever process they are going through.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ....

No matter how they reach the decision to get rid of Masi, they will be making the next incumbents role very very difficult if not impossible.

I don't think he has done much wrong in the guidelines he was given, and particularly in relation to Mercedes.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

No matter how they reach the decision to get rid of Masi, they will be making the next incumbents role very very difficult if not impossible.

Masi is an excellent race director who should remain. To do otherwise would be most absurd!

Originally Posted by S griffin

I do wonder if the FIA are deliberately leaving the decision till just before the season to try and force Hamilton to commit to the season, as he won't know the outcome till they are already at Bahrain for the first GP of the season. Maybe I'm just being too cynical

Whether a racing driver chooses to continue racing has zero relation to who the race director is. The alternative notion is just ridiculous.

Hamilton is on the entry list, if not then Mercedes would likely arrange a deal for Ocon which would allow the promising Piastri to make his Grand Prix debut.

[ascarracinguk]

Teams and manufacturers holding the sport to ransom….

… lol well that’s nothing new! It’s a tactic that’s been employed in F1 for decades. I’ve lost count how many times Marko has threatened to quit F1, Ferrari, Break away series, The turbo era etc etc etc

If people are pushing to get rid of Masi however, I doubt it’s just Mercedes’, as previous reports he has lost the confidence of several teams and drivers

[crmalcolm]

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...41&postcount=1

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Teams and manufacturers holding the sport to ransom….

If people are pushing to get rid of Masi however, I doubt it’s just Mercedes’, as previous reports he has lost the confidence of several teams and drivers

A list of the teams and drivers who feel that way, and their stated reasons, might be instructive and give rise to thoughts about their motivation.