DJRTP Seeks Clarification/Education On McLaughlin Speeding Penalty

[ForumNick]

Originally Posted by peckstar

which would mean everyone was over the limit if that was the case

Well the device indicated that they were! But they weren't really, which is why the unit was removed & fines/points refunded!

[spook]

Working on the 38.2km/h claimed by DJRP, and the desired 40km/h, we are looking at a loop spacing error of 236mm. Hard to see them being that far out, but if the first loop was 5m before the pit entry line and not after, could explain the problem.

If the loops are 300 wide, the error is within the physical width of one loop.

Will individual loops always trigger at mid point ?, or one nearer the leading wire and the second on the trailing wire ?.

Hard to imagine the wheel speed sensors can allow for tyre wear (change to rolling diameter) & be accurate 100% of the time.

I'm no expert & not taking sides - just thinking out loud........

And the difference in time is between 38.2km/h & 40km/h over 5m is 0.0212 seconds

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by ForumNick

In NSW, Fixed Speed Cameras also use timing loops. IIRC the one on Spit Hill was found to be faulty (loop wires were too close together).

Correct, they deemed that the movement of traffic over the loop wires had actually shifted one of the wires enough to give false readings, that's how critical it is.

[Ospi]

Originally Posted by peckstar

and Supercars have data that is a straight out measurement , not pieced together data

It's not difficult to align data to video since that's standard practice in motorsport analysis and they can see clearly in the data when the brake light is active and when not when it comes to aligning to the tv coverage.

Transponders can fault as well; We had one (same brand used in V8S) fail to trigger correctly resulting in incorrect lap times once in ELMS competition and had to switch to the backup as a result.

What surprises me is that the transponders used in Supercars should have the capability of being linked to CAN on the car so you can see the trigger point of the transponder with car data, that would clear this up quickly, but for some reason it seems supercars isn't doing this. They need to, it would save a lot of hassle.

Of course, if it's a fault with the transponder then the ruling should not be reversed as it's a team issue and race control can only react to the information they have, which is why the ruling won't be reversed, but to me it's clear the speeding did not take place and the source of error should be determined and rectified.

[Gaz170]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Hopefully nothing comes of this. The 2017 championship would have a huge asterisk next to it, not to mention the integrity of Supercars itself.

Same as when a ref makes a mistake during the football grand final. The result is when they blow the final whistle, they don't go back and change the result even if it's proven the ref got it wrong.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

Same as when a ref makes a mistake during the football grand final. The result is when they blow the final whistle, they don't go back and change the result even if it's proven the ref got it wrong.

Except in motor racing you are often penalised after the race has finished.

The TV viewer switches off the TV or the spectator leaves the race track only to find later on the results have been changed.

Happens far too much in motorsport. Happens only very rarely in other sports.

[Umai Naa]

Some seem to forget that the pit lane speed limiter only cuts in at or under 40km/h.

I personally don't think Supercars has a case to answer. It was the same system for everyone. Unless there's an anomaly with the DJRTP cars, they are perhaps clutching at straws.

[GTRMagic]

Is there going to be a request for investigation into the decision by Race Control to punish the 2 nerfs Mr McLaughlin made on both SdS and Mr Lowndes?

[one five five]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Since there never was a speeding infringement, the celebration can't have contributed to it!

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Except they didn't get it wrong, see for yourself. Clearly the officials made an error when measuring the speed.

Why is it you are so keen to blindly accept DJRTP saying there wasn't an infringment, yet won't accept Race Control saying there was an infringement?

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Compromised

What could possibly be changed by winning that protest? Is it purely about vindication?

It isn't a protest. Regardless of the outcome of this meet and greet, the result cannot be changed as you cannot protest a decision made by a Judge of Fact. (NCR 181A (i) )

Originally Posted by Compromised

Also, has it been confirmed wether Supercars use a radar or GPS timing loop for enforcing the pit lane limit?

They use neither. They have laser devices in the lane, and two loops 5m apart at pit entry.

If there was an error in the distance between the two loops, then more cars would have been pinged for speeding.

If the transponder was faulty or failing, the timing team would have been able to detect that and therefore not put as much trust in the result. It wasn't faulty or failing

At this juncture, Supercars have an absolute time measurement over the 5m distance. The only way that anyone could possibly say that Supercars is wrong is if the team has one source of information that clearly shows the time taken to transit the lane. Linking data to video to assume where a vehicle is (to a margin of error of 0.0212 seconds as taken from spooks post above) is not going to be feasibly good enough to be relied upon.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by one five five

Why is it you are so keen to blindly accept DJRTP saying there wasn't an infringment, yet won't accept Race Control saying there was an infringement?

In all modern sports, there is always a question of human element.
I know this as an AFl umpire, yes I missed some, made a to call to quickly ,
saw only half of the incident, but generally umpired the game in the spirit of things.
Like the NRL, the cowboys excepted they didnt play the best in one grand final, but how many tackles can you have.

If you know QLD, north bound from Bris there is a speed camera. It had a horrid history of picking speeding cars in the south bound lanes, but picture, cars in the northbound lanes.

Interesting court case over a period of time, the woman was never cleared of speeding, just the unit wasn't calibrated or the operator wasn't trained correctly. It cost a lot of dollars , no fine , but never cleared of supposed speeding.

If you hang out in Vic, there is a point to point (Supercars system) that catches ppl out . It uses the , distance x time system.
That is if u are doing the speed limit all is good, but if you hit it hard, then try to slow down,sad, you have exceeded the time, thefore you where speeding.

All DJRTP want to know, is this:

Supercars supply the unit in the cars. ( remeber Ambrose and some extra wires)

Supercars installed the system on the circuit

Supercars also have volunteers(CAMS Officials) , who have completed the course on RadarGun operation.

Is there a fault with the unit in the car, is there a fault with the readings or settings.

If you are a team owner in a controlled equipment series, and you got pinged, wouldn't you like to know which piece of equipment wasn't working correctly.

They bang on all the time about this , and the great Tim, said, we can tell by the telemetry what a car is doing ..

I myself don't have a side in this.
Do we go back to stop watches, men in white coats, or do we go forward and use electronic systems.

To me , I would go with modern equipment, sensors, light beams, point to point, take out the finger on the radar gun, making pit entry a tadd longer to slow down, unlike govt roads, where you do 100k's , but as soon as you exit, jump on the brakes to 60 ks or less

but thats my view

[Compromised]

So if Penske know their data is less accurate/reliable than Supercars, what's their endgame here? Is it just to seed doubt about the quality of officiating?

[Trevor]

Given that people can bet on the outcome of Supercar races with a betting company

It would be funny as hell if they (Supercars) were to be investigated for 'race fixing'

[Tourer]

Supercars have made a statement re the timing loop for pit entry: "no error"

[Compromised]

Would love to see some data from Supercars to go along with their statement.

And lol at calling anything "100% accurate"...

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Would love to see some data from Supercars to go along with their statement.

And lol at calling anything "100% accurate"...

I really don't know what data they could provide tbh.

The timing system is used to determine the speed over the timing loops at pit entry. I would think that any info pulled out of the timing system (other than the on screen readout of speed) would consist of lines of computer code.

Ultimately the meeting on Monday is for DJRTP to understand how the team got it wrong so that the team can make any changes necessary for the future.

As the timing system is accurate to 1/10000 of a sec, it is clearly a very accurate regime, probably more accurate at measuring actual speed between 2 points than any on-board data.

[Jam3s]

I hope Penske are looking long and hard into their configs and calibrations because they've got a pretty fundamental issue going on with it if the officials system is 100% accurate after posting the data they have of their cars performance.

[peckstar]

An old, but relevant article

LDM releases data to prove pit speed innocence

“That said, we agree with the fans. It seems crazy to wipe a car out of a race for a speed infraction of one or two km/h.’
“V8 Supercars has commenced a review into the tools, the system and the penalties around pit lane speeding.

And 4 years later we still get the same penalty, wonder what the result of the review was

[Compromised]

You raise a really good point peckstar - if the punishment was more appropriate, it wouldn't cause quite so much controversy.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Compromised

You raise a really good point peckstar - if the punishment was more appropriate, it wouldn't cause quite so much controversy.

In my mind, unless its blatant, should be the same as a jump start. 10 sec hold at next pit stop or time added at the end

[Tourer]

Problem with reducing the penalty is that speeding in pit lane can occur anywhere down the lane, not just at pit entry and there are people working in the lane.

The penalty in my view needs to be a big one to really keep teams focussed on it - it works too you might say given the level of focus that DJRTP are putting on it to address the problem from their end.

In a different way it's like the ECU or testing rules - really big punishments for transgressing so no-one goes there at all (well, not recently anyway).

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Problem with reducing the penalty is that speeding in pit lane can occur anywhere down the lane, not just at pit entry and there are people working in the lane.

The penalty in my view needs to be a big one to really keep teams focussed on it - it works too you might say given the level of focus that DJRTP are putting on it to address the problem from their end.

In a different way it's like the ECU or testing rules - really big punishments for transgressing so no-one goes there at all (well, not recently anyway).

10 seconds is a big penalty in the scheme of things, so big it can cost you a championship

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by peckstar

10 seconds is a big penalty in the scheme of things, so big it can cost you a championship

But if you got such a small penalty early in a long race, you could easily make that time up, particularly if you were smart about when you take your next pitstop and add the penalty.

It may be that they review the penalty for pit lane speeding, I'm just saying that it is something taken seriously due to the proximity of humans in the lane.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Tourer

But if you got such a small penalty early in a long race, you could easily make that time up, particularly if you were smart about when you take your next pitstop and add the penalty.

It may be that they review the penalty for pit lane speeding, I'm just saying that it is something taken seriously due to the proximity of humans in the lane.

same as a jump start though. Same as turning someone around

We dont have a problem with speeding in pit lane, at most cars are doing 1-5 km over, yes worthy of a penalty, but not worth ruining a race for it.

We fine $100 per km/h in practise

[Alan52]

If it was a fine in the race teams would calculate how much they are willing to pay for a shorter pit stop.At $100/kilometre it could be the best $5000 a team could spend.
Whatever the line is teams will push it right up to that line to the point they can avoid penalty.