The Circuits - Discussion on their safety or otherwise!

[PTRACER]

I have a question for those who have been racing for quite a number of years/decades - have you become more and more conscious about safety as you've got older? If so, is it to do with age in general or just experience?

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>What really gets to me is the unnecessary expenditure forced on us by the powers that be such as seat dating, harness dating, helmet and suit dating etc.

Suits aren't dated. The ones going out this year will not have been produced in the last 9 years so it's been pretty good use from them :-) There's no proposed replacement date for 8856-2000

>>>>>>>>> have you become more and more conscious about safety as you've got older? If so, is it to do with age in general or just experience?

Yes, and it's an age thing IMO. Like I've started getting fitter, slimmer and drinking less alcohol

[jhh911]

A seat belt is only as good as the point it is attached to and what has suprised me after returning to UK racing,after a 30 year break,is that these days scrutineers seem to spend far more time looking at labels rather than checking that the car is bolted together correctly.Many times in the past I have been grateful for the loose bolt discovered in scrutineering or the missing hose clamp you forgot after your all nighter.Of course these guys do a fantastic job but ,like everything in life these days, if you cant tick a box, your screwed.

[v8dave]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I would like to see some evidence of this as it certainly does not apply to road vehices or motorcycle helmets. Wear and tear (visable), cutting after a big un, same sawing up helmet if damaged I go along with 100% but not sure how a set of belts used a dozen times and stored out of sunlight can become U/S overnight once they reach a sell by date.

I'm with Al to some extent here - belts webbings are either safe from ageing or not, if not then the date of manufacture of the yarn used to weave the webbing is all important since that will be its 'birth day' and it will age from there. If the material does not degrade then lets have the old system back where the scrutineer or the driver can look at the harness and see that it is cut, chaffed, has loose stitching, etc. and withdraw it from service.

That said I use safety harnesses at work and they have a maximum life of ten years from manufacture or five years from first use - first one to expire is end of life for the harness. On top of that they are inspected when used, like scrutineering, and can be scrapped because of damage or sent for repair. They have log cards to record inspections so something similar would be needed which would slow scrutineering since there would be a number of items to sign off.

[Al Weyman]

In answer to PT's question I think a lot ofit depends on who is picking up the tab, for me I have wrecked several cars and done the front of one of my current ones just last year and yes it does slow you down a tad if I am honest. I said to one of our guys after a big shunt it would and he said no what, at the next race he was noticible more cautious till he got into and as I said its also the expense not jut the self presevation thing. I guess its one reason why young guys go to war when in fact it would make sense for old guys like me without families to be out in Helman not 18 year olds with their lifes ahead of them.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by JimW

Are you really not willing to accept that people are trying to deliver the sort of passive safety which reduces unnecessary risks? I assume you are ignorant of the ways in which plastics degrade with age?

Why not assume that these people, who mainly have been supporting motorsport for many years, at least are trying to deliver safety and reduce unnecessary risk.

Prove the experts wrong by all means but then you'd be an expert yourself.

Regards

Jim

Well I'm ignorant of many things. I'm not a plastics expert, I'm not a metallurgist, I'm not a chemicals nor petroleum engineer, nor any sort of engineer for that matter.

I do know that I survived a fairly major shunt 40 years ago held in place in a rolling car with rudimentary roll cage and a fibreglass 'shell' seat fixed to a metal frame and full harness ( but of the narrow strap, aicraft buckle type). The fact that I stayed in place and there was no fire were key factors. However, the seat and harness I use today are far superior to the equipment of 40 years ago and I don't need to be any of the above experts to know that what I have now will do the job far longer than the 'dating' they contain.

As I said in the post to which you have replied I have always kept abreast of latest safety measures and I'm sure no sensible person would ignore the best safety equipment that is affordable. I have no desire to injure myself or, more importantly, for my son or stepson to be injured as they now drive the car more than I do. My car is kept in a cool, dark shed so light and heat should not be a degradation factor. I still do not see why I should have to replace items every 3 or so years purely because of the passage of time and irrespective of how many times and for what period said items have been used.

I think to a large extent it's a result of the 'risk averse' society we live in today. I accept when I sit in the race car that whatever I have done to mitigate the risks it is motor racing we are doing and it can not be risk free. I feel the same when I drive a road car these days and to answer PT Racer's later question it's 43 years of racing and 48 years of driving on the road that give a level of experience/safety consciousness that I perhaps didn't have when I was younger.

Midgetman stated that suits aren't dated but the changing BS standards have the same effect. How do we know that BS this is 'safer' than BS that?

[Al Weyman]

Or is it all BS!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Or is it all BS!

Hmm.

An off topic related observation.

We had a new kitchen fitted in June and as part of the minor changes to the household electrics opted for a new consumer unit - up to date thing with circuit breaker/trip switches, call them what you will. Electrician chap mentioned that they can be quite sensitive and the that 'standards' change almost yearly.

This evening the 40W bulb in the hall blew when I switched it on just as it was getting dark. This tripped the circuit breaker and took out all the downstairs lights, including the light in the garage where the consumer unit is installed. Thus I had to search around for a torch in order to see what I was doing and identify which switch to reset. It also took out the landing light since it is on a shared circuit, being switchable from upostauirs or downstairs. Presumably had I been upstairs and an upstairs bulb blew I would have been left trying to get downstairs without a light.

Such is progress. The old fuse box, complete with wire fuses, rarely caused a problem until the microwave started playing up recently. In 25 years I had probably changed a wire 3 times. Never when a bulb blew.

Such is the 'progress' we achieve with constantly advancing documented safety standards. They are not all bad - but I often wonder whether the net results are more often subject to the laws of unintended consequences that anyone will admit.

There is the old adage that 'What gets measured gets done'. That is not always a good thing since it can easily be converted to 'What can be measured (or box ticked) gets done', as jhh911 alluded to above. Then people wonder why new standardsa are not having the predicted efect and decide they must create even more regulation - until the assumed problem that led to the checks in the first place 'goes away'.

If you can't fix it, ban it.

Sorry for the OT but the parallel applies, in my view, for all subjects and acceptance of BS in one sphere of human activity leads to a more general acceptance across all others, given time. So all observation sources count as evidence for debate.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by midgetman

..........Yes, and it's an age thing IMO. Like I've started getting fitter, slimmer and drinking less alcohol

>>sounds like training to become a BOF