Driving historic racing saloons/sports/GTs on the road - Good idea?

[LAK]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I raced in a series that you had to drive the car to the track and never again and I believe it should be made illegal by the MSA as its totally irresponsible to encourage people to do so. Try getting a Sunbeam Tabot rolled up into a ball at Oulton Park back to London and you may not think it such a great idea. Also how many of these road racers will actually check their cars before taking them back on the road or drive with unsutable brake pads and tyres for road use, utter madness in my view and why I started a break away championship.

Al, I respect your view but as Jason and I are fully paid up members of the road driven race car brigade I feel I need to respond to your thoughts.

All our race cars are road legal - Jason and I competed for over 10 years (and still occasionally do) in 70's Roadsports in our Lancia's and drove them too and from the circuit for every race. Our FIA Ford Falcon was road legal, our Griffith 200 is road legal and we'd happily drive our Lancia Aurelia to every AMOC round but we've been staying overnight so use the camper.

Admittedly things do go wrong at the circuit but the AA (and RAC) cover for such events so after various clutch, big end, gearbox failures, we've always got home without too much drama other than to the bank balance!

I don't want to go off on a tangent from an interesting conversation but historic (can't talk about moderns) road driven championships are the cheapest way for many people to enter motorsports and I believe should be ecouraged. Our road/race cars get more TLC from both a road perspective than most other road only or race only cars.

Personally, there's nothing better than getting up at the crack of dawn, driving the race car to an event with little on the roads and having a good day's play. An added advantage to a road driven car is the ability to scrub tyres in, bed brakes as well as test that any repairs have worked.

Sorry John - please feel free to scold me and get the thread back on target!

[zefarelly]

well said LAK, I have toyed with an MOT for my car to go testing on the cheap!

[Colin McKay]

My Mk2 Jag was (is) road registered although I only ever used to drive it from home to the prep shop which was much more convenient than loading it up & towing it. I wouldn't want to take it round the M25 though, or up to Anglesey at single-figures-to-the-gallon.

[terence]

Originally Posted by LAK

Al, I respect your view but as Jason and I are fully paid up members of the road driven race car brigade I feel I need to respond to your thoughts.

All our race cars are road legal - Jason and I competed for over 10 years (and still occasionally do) in 70's Roadsports in our Lancia's and drove them too and from the circuit for every race. Our FIA Ford Falcon was road legal, our Griffith 200 is road legal and we'd happily drive our Lancia Aurelia to every AMOC round but we've been staying overnight so use the camper.

Admittedly things do go wrong at the circuit but the AA (and RAC) cover for such events so after various clutch, big end, gearbox failures, we've always got home without too much drama other than to the bank balance!

I don't want to go off on a tangent from an interesting conversation but historic (can't talk about moderns) road driven championships are the cheapest way for many people to enter motorsports and I believe should be ecouraged. Our road/race cars get more TLC from both a road perspective than most other road only or race only cars.

Personally, there's nothing better than getting up at the crack of dawn, driving the race car to an event with little on the roads and having a good day's play. An added advantage to a road driven car is the ability to scrub tyres in, bed brakes as well as test that any repairs have worked.

Sorry John - please feel free to scold me and get the thread back on target!

Well said that young lady! Even better,drive the car to Spa,two one hour practice sessions and one race saturday,drive over to Luxemburg Sunday for lunch with friends,back to Spa and another 1hr race at 4 in the afternoon! Get stopped for a speed issue on our way back to the ferry,get let off,make the ferry in plenty of time. Fabulous weekend!!

[LAK]

Ha ha Colin - understand the fuel issue. We don't often take the Griff on the road for the same reason - well that and the fact that it hates going under 70mph which then has obvious issues in itself!

Terry, that even sounds too much for us although it sounds like you had a hoot. We often used to drive both cars to Croix with tent and tools in Jason's Beta with me following. I do recall going to Chimay (admittedly using our race van at the time), doing over 2 hours of free practice, 3 x 30 mins qualifying, 3 x 1 hour races in the weekend and in between all this we drove the car to dinner and also lunch the next day. The locals were most bemused!

Talking about bemused, when I used to do the service/MOT runs to our Italian car mechanic (I dropped one off then swapped with another), those at work got very confused re what car I was going to arrive in. It got even more confusing when they issued permits and I had to register 6 cars....if I was still there I'd have even more to register.....

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by LAK

Al, I respect your view but as Jason and I are fully paid up members of the road driven race car brigade I feel I need to respond to your thoughts.

All our race cars are road legal - Jason and I competed for over 10 years (and still occasionally do) in 70's Roadsports in our Lancia's and drove them too and from the circuit for every race. Our FIA Ford Falcon was road legal, our Griffith 200 is road legal and we'd happily drive our Lancia Aurelia to every AMOC round but we've been staying overnight so use the camper.

Admittedly things do go wrong at the circuit but the AA (and RAC) cover for such events so after various clutch, big end, gearbox failures, we've always got home without too much drama other than to the bank balance!

I don't want to go off on a tangent from an interesting conversation but historic (can't talk about moderns) road driven championships are the cheapest way for many people to enter motorsports and I believe should be ecouraged. Our road/race cars get more TLC from both a road perspective than most other road only or race only cars.

Personally, there's nothing better than getting up at the crack of dawn, driving the race car to an event with little on the roads and having a good day's play. An added advantage to a road driven car is the ability to scrub tyres in, bed brakes as well as test that any repairs have worked.

Sorry John - please feel free to scold me and get the thread back on target!

Sorry Lak I also respect your opinion but I stand by my views I have been there and done that and aint going there again. I believe there was a chap killed on M25 on the way back from a Road Saloon race as something failed on his car sorry but I stand by my view to encourage cars to be driven damned hard for twenty minutes and often a lot longer then drive them home is irresponsible and in this day and age of litigation I would not want to be the promoter of a club that encouraged this if the worse came to the worse.

Answer me something and this is assuming nothing goes wrong with your car like a cracked disc or hub ready to fail on the way back home, do you run race material pads in your cars especially the heavy yank? Did you go out on the first lap and weave about a bit to warm the tyres up and feather the brake pedal to get a bit of heat into the pads? I bet if they were proper competion pads you did but if on the way home a kid steps out in front of you and you hav'nt touched the brakes for a while and those unwarmed pads not up to optimum do not pull up correctly and you hit that kid what then. Or the tyres fail after a sound thrashing or a ball joint on the suspension breaks, sorry I have found cracked discs after the race on my Camaro and its not on, they must be trailered in my opinion.

BTW I will add my comments relate to INSISTING cars are driven too and from the circuit as has been suggested for this series not as an option because then I respect the right of the individual to choose although I wouldnt myself.

[LAK]

Hi Al. You've made some great points - makes for a healthy debate!

In answer to your question, all our cars are first and foremost road cars so none are or have been so highly tuned so that they cannot be used safely on the road. Our Falcon didn't have "full" competition pads and nor our Griffith and I've never felt the need to overly warm up brakes or tyres. Mind you, these days we tend to take part in longer distance races that requires a different mindset on the first few laps, albeit that AMOC races for the Aurelia are only 20 min.

We believe that we should enjoy our cars to the fullest extent on both road and track and therefore all our cars are prepared on that basis. This may not mean that they are always at the front end, although the Griff is a race winner and our other cars regularly win their class. I fully admit that we probably stand in a small majority of people that firmly believe in the mindset of old where racing cars were used as daily transport and then as play things at the weekend. With more aggressive preparation perhaps we would achieve more but that would mean a loss of the enjoyment of the car which is a price we don't want to pay.

I take your point re the mandatory driving bit however, if people are sensible and prepare their cars appropriately to drive safely on the road and also race, there should be few issues. In itself, road driving should be a natural self regulation, which is surely what we all want .

[Peter Mallett]

It may be a good idea to separate the "driving racing cars on the road" discussion from the pre 63 saloons. With your permission I'll set up a new thread.

[terence]

One point to think about and that is that the cars we race were capable of being driven on the road in period.It's only these latter years where some have been over developed that has made some unsuitable for such use.

[Al Weyman]

Ha ha you would'nt want to drive my old Chevy on the road with a cam that will only 'tick' over at 1500rpm, a 7 inch button clutch and flywheel and returning not so many to the gallon. Funny enough I just got back from two races at Rockingham and you get an idea what it would be like with the trek around form the outer paddock, thats a very tiring circuit on car and driver, during the 2nd race for some reason I ended up with 2nd gear only and nursed the car home and all I wanted to do was get it on the trailer and drive it home in comfort as I was as tired as the car. The thought of laying under the thing trying to sort out the gears then getting in the noisy pig to drive it 85 miles home on dubius tyres and without checking the brakes would be the stuff of nightmares.

However Our Tim Dodwell still did two races and drove his Mini home stuffed with spares so can be done I guess. Actually Tim does change his wheels tyres which he brings with him for the drive home I believe and probably checks his brakes in the process which would be a sensible approach.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Ha ha you would'nt want to drive my old Chevy on the road with a cam that will only 'tick' over at 1500rpm, a 7 inch button clutch and flywheel and returning not so many to the gallon. Funny enough I just got back from two races at Rockingham and you get an idea what it would be like with the trek around form the outer paddock, thats a very tiring circuit on car and driver, during the 2nd race for some reason I ended up with 2nd gear only and nursed the car home and all I wanted to do was get it on the trailer and drive it home in comfort as I was as tired as the car. The thought of laying under the thing trying to sort out the gears then getting in the noisy pig to drive it 85 miles home on dubius tyres and without checking the brakes would be the stuff of nightmares.

However Our Tim Dodwell still did two races and drove his Mini home stuffed with spares so can be done I guess. Actually Tim does change his wheels tyres which he brings with him for the drive home I believe and probably checks his brakes in the process which would be a sensible approach.

Wow! Tim's still at it then? I remember him racing his road going 1275GT in Modsaloons races in the early 80's before starting the Roadsaloons Championship. Good on him!

[Al Weyman]

It goes back further than that, he showed me a picture of the same car hillclimbing and it was from the 60/70's I believe!

[midgetman]

I drove my race MG on the road to an MG meet - never, ever again. It lept from bump to bump, no torque below 2.5k, noisy, harsh, uncomfortable, rubbish lights (OK, OK, that's MGs normaly, i know!) and on the way back I wiped off the exhaust on a bump. No, never again! Track car for track, road car for road.

And yes I've done my bit going to speed events and competing in the road car. Something a bit corinthian about it all, but much harder work than just loading it back on the trailer and going home in comfort!

[Al Weyman]

Agreed especially if you invest in a nice trailer, electric winch and comfortable tow car, that air con is bliss on the way home on a hot day!

[tim dodwell]

Can't ignore this thread, can I! Al, what's this about a Road Saloon guy killed on the M25 going home after a race? Someone did have a terrible accident, when another car swerved into him on the M25 on the way home after a Road Saloon race at Brands. Mercifully, he was not badly injured - although you would have been surprised if you had seen the aftermath. Probably the safety equipment (roll cage etc) saved him.
I find EBC pads work fine both on the road and the track. Also, as do the Dunlop tyres - hot and dry, or cloudburst wet.
Al, PLEASE don't bring this up again - we were so glad when you and Brian Sheridan left our Road Saloons, and started the Mod-Prods. To be free of your moaning was bliss. So, do what you prefer, but leave other folk to do what they wish. I started competing in 1967 (with my grey Mini), and have always driven my competition cars to my events (well over 500). Some folk do not have anywhere to put a trailer (or have a tow car). Maybe it is difficult to get good results, but you can sure have a load of fun.

[Al Weyman]

Aw Tim don't have a pop at me please old luv you know the last thing I would want to do is upset you but I had to use the example in the context of the thread, I thought I was being quite nice to you actually, oh and i appologise for suggesting you changed tyres as I now realise you don't I got my lines crossed on that and the guy killed, chinese whispers see.

I didnt actually raise the thread although on the face of it I can see it looks like i did as it was split, I was merely commenting on someone elses remark that they would like to see a pre-63 series be made mandatory to drive the car to and from the track where as I suggested I didnt think it would be a good idea having had first hand experience of getting a wreck home 200 odd miles, that was it. I did stress as long as it was not mandatory then no problem. We have to draw on life's experiences to make a point and Road Saloons was one of mine.

[HRSTR5]

I've road-driven my TR5 for 5 years, although have now resorted to towing as the Mrs and Toddler want to come along too. HSCC Historic Roadsports encourages road-driving by giving the driver an additional two points for every round, but road-driving will mean that inevitably you have a small part of your race-brain which is telling you that you have to drive it home ... and you prepare your car accordingly.

I feel that my car was probably in better shape for road-driving than half the other normal cars on the road, the tyres were road-legal yokos (they have to be road-legal for the championship anyway), as a road-driver I had to discard them earlier than a trailered car might have done, just to ensure that they were not only legal but capable of handling a cloudburst. Brakewise, I never ran the raciest of pads, and was always more than happy with the cold performance of anything I chose. On top of this, in order to cope with an M6 run home from Oulton I only put a fast-road cam in it anyway, just so it wasn't a nightmare in traffic.

In fact I reckon that along with my better ability to handle the car (due to the race experience) and better reaction times, I would think I was one of the better 'risks' on the road - coupled with the fact that I always gave the myself and the car a good 'relaxing' drive on the way home too. To be honest I reckon that the road-driver driving his racecar home after a busy meeting might be rather more alert than a similarly tired driver cossetted in his modern tow vehicle with decent seating/heating/waterproofing/etc.

I find it a little ironic that in my 5 years I never had contact with other competitors or scenery, and yet just a few months after acquiring trailer and tow-vehicle I've managed to 'park' it in the tyrewall at Combe... Clearly trying harder than I ever did before.

I am actually sad to have stopped road-driving, and would not discount doing so again in the future. But I will be keeping up my membership of both AA AND RAC!!!

Nothing wrong with road-driving if one is sensible, in my opinion anyway, I'd actually like to see more road-drivers in my Championship.

[Al Weyman]

But I will be keeping up my membership of both AA AND RAC!!!

I dont think they will help you anymore if you stack it while on the race track.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I dont think they will help you anymore if you stack it while on the race track.

Not while inside the circuit premises

[Al Weyman]

And if it was like my Talbot rolled into a ball at Oulton there would have been no way to move it on to the road same as the two cars that were wrecked in my race at Brands. As it happens the RAC did get me home as they would in those days but the driver moaned like hell when he arrived at the circuit and started banging on how it was people like me that kept genuine motorists stranded waiting blah blah blah, till I produced a tenner......

[LAK]

Great post James (HRSTR5) - you've exactly mirrored the thoughts of many a Road Sports driver. Be sensible, prepare the car for both the road and race track and there is a lot of fun to be had.

Al, it does appear that you're regularly on the wrong side of bad luck or bad people which is a shame. Jason had a terrible accident in his Beta at Castle Combe about 8 years ago and the RAC were most helpful in getting his car back to our mechanic's place without any issue or question. Perhaps we were just lucky...

It's horses for courses and what works for one person doesn't work for another - thank goodness we don't all like the same things or it would make for a very boring life.

My sole point for responding to Al's points on the GT saloon thread was to counter that driving race cars to and from the track is dangerous and should be banned by the MSA - it isn't and should never be. There are plenty of championships and races in the historic racing world to cater for everyone, so let's just chill out and enjoy or cars in whatever form of driving/racing we do.

[Al Weyman]

LAK that was 8 years ago I think you will find if you look carefully at your RAC membership they will no longer do that mine was about 12 or 14 years ago, I did check it out at the time and in those days when RAC=MSA they would but since the split I think you will find you would now be stuffed if you had a big un. However I am sure there would be other guys with trailers ;-) that would help you get her home.

[LAK]

Al, you clearly hold your view very dear to your heart. Enjoy racing your wonderful Yank Tank (love your IROC car BTW) and your tow vehicle and I will enjoy my 4 (soon to become 5) road legal race cars on both the road and track. Look forward to meeting you at a track (or on the road ) one day!

[Sabre Rattler]

Although I now trailer the Sabre to most races, I have been known to drive to Spa and Nurburgring, race & drive home again.
It has also done the Alpine rally three times in the last twenty years and lots of station & school runs (other dads are green with envy)

When running a Peugeot 309 I had race tyres on spare rims plus loads of spares & did 8 or 9 rounds of the CSCC Tin Tops series. It was certainly the cheapest racing as I used the car for shopping & the daily station run during the week.

OK I agree, neither car would win as they are just not up to full race specification (slightly softer cams, EBC Green stuff pads, etc) but I get just as much pleasure as the people a couple of rows ahead of me on the grid, which is where I would get to if I went full race.

To actually win? Well, as the old Irish joke goes, "if you wanted to get there, I wouldn't start from here". So, sell the Sabre and run the Brabhams in F3? In fact I am doing exactly the opposite! Driving the Sabre on the road is hugely entertaining. Get an MX5 hanging on your rear bumper and at the next set of 3 roundabouts, slow down for the first two then take the last one flat out without lifting. Watching in the mirror is hilarious!

I think when I was with HSCC Improved Road Sports it was an extra 3 points if you drove TO the circuit (several drivers used to drive there with a mechanic, tow car & trailer following. I bet Thetford services were busy an hour or so before signing on on Snetterton race days!)

The driving to & from the circuit was one of the deciding factors for me in going circuit racing. I would not have done the ARDS course and bought race tyres if I had to also go out and buy a tow car and a trailer. I was living in West London at the time and had a small lock up for the (then rally) Sabre and street parking regulations precluded a third (tow) car & trailer.

How many other novices would find the requirement to run a trailer sufficient to keep them out of racing?

And, I hear you ask, what happens on the occasions when you bust it?
Tannoy over the circuit for anyone in your series that lives your way, has a trailer and has a road registered race car. I have always had several offers of help when doing this and indeed have returned the favour myself whenever I can.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by LAK

Al, you clearly hold your view very dear to your heart. Enjoy racing your wonderful Yank Tank (love your IROC car BTW) and your tow vehicle and I will enjoy my 4 (soon to become 5) road legal race cars on both the road and track. Look forward to meeting you at a track (or on the road ) one day!

Thanks for that LAK and glad you like the IROC, its an unusual race car over here and I am just building an engine for it to the same format as my yellow car so hope to have it out one last time this year. Not saying I would'nt like a a blast out on the road now and then with either car because I would and even driving to the track but its just driving them back after a good thrashing and all the problems I may have on the day. For example at Rockingham I lost all gears but for one during the race, it turned out to be very simple to rectify but it could have been terminal and a long tow home.

And, I hear you ask, what happens on the occasions when you bust it?
Tannoy over the circuit for anyone in your series that lives your way, has a trailer and has a road registered race car. I have always had several offers of help when doing this and indeed have returned the favour myself whenever I can.

Sabre that would be fine UNLESS.... it was mandatory that all cars entered had to be driven to the track then no one would have a trailer if you get my drift. :-)