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Old 20 Mar 2008, 15:24 (Ref:2157337)   #1
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GT1 engine homologation for LMP1 rule question.

Since GT1 engines are allowed to be used in LMP1 cars on equal par with purpose built engines now, I have a question.

Does displacement count, as the 7.0 V8 used in the Corvettes is approved, but is 1 liter over the LMP1 limit? And could one dust off a Panoz Elan V8 and use it a LMP1 car under this rule, as it's basically the same engine as the Ford V8 used in the Saleen S7 aside from displacement(6 vs 7 liters) and some details, namely the air box?

What is the criteria that the ACO is using aside from a production limit?
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Old 20 Mar 2008, 17:14 (Ref:2157408)   #2
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The359 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
6000cc remains the limit.
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Old 20 Mar 2008, 23:19 (Ref:2157686)   #3
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Page 9 from the regs, so same limits:


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Old 21 Mar 2008, 22:30 (Ref:2158568)   #4
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So, the way I read that, if you have an 8 litre GT1 engine, it's pukka in LMP1?
So long as you made 1000 models per annum...

So, when do Chevvy wake up to THAT one?
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Old 21 Mar 2008, 22:45 (Ref:2158583)   #5
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assuming I read your statement and the regs before it, wouldn't chevy have to cut the engine back to 6L, as in smaller than the Z06 motor to be an LMP1 engine? I would love to see them in protos but think they will go the smaller turbo route with it advertised as an Ecotec engine possibly derived from a future Ecotec project for a street car.
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Old 21 Mar 2008, 23:03 (Ref:2158599)   #6
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Originally Posted by broadrun96
assuming I read your statement and the regs before it, wouldn't chevy have to cut the engine back to 6L, as in smaller than the Z06 motor to be an LMP1 engine?
There are several corvette engines of differnt sizes:

The chevy LS 1 & LS6 is 5.7 L, the new LS2 is 6 L and the LS3 is 6.2 L while the LS 7 is 7 L

and there might be a 6 L V10 in the engine developers ware house that could be re activated. But then again that could be a mear rummor too.

So there are several corvette engines sizes to work with
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Old 21 Mar 2008, 23:20 (Ref:2158616)   #7
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So I guess that this leaves Panoz/Saleen/Ford out unless one uses the 5.4 liter version of the Ford 5.0 Modular "cammer" DOHC V8 used in the Esperante, which isn't poweriful enough, and is larger and heavier than the 6.0 Elan 6L8 V8 that's basically an aluminum block/fuel injected Ford 351 SVO Cleveor.
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 15:00 (Ref:2159001)   #8
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dxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddxk1 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL
There are several corvette engines of differnt sizes:

The chevy LS 1 & LS6 is 5.7 L, the new LS2 is 6 L and the LS3 is 6.2 L while the LS 7 is 7 L

and there might be a 6 L V10 in the engine developers ware house that could be re activated. But then again that could be a mear rummor too.

So there are several corvette engines sizes to work with
Isn't there a monster 8 litre engine sitting around somewhere that was used during the canam days in the McLarens and Chaparrals? While old, a little development...who knows?

DK
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 15:48 (Ref:2159026)   #9
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Yes. Different engine

Iron block 454 ci with 900 BHP

There is also a V16 11.4L ( two 5.7l V8s put to gether with a Caddie name plate too)
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 16:37 (Ref:2159043)   #10
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HORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by broadrun96
assuming I read your statement and the regs before it, wouldn't chevy have to cut the engine back to 6L, as in smaller than the Z06 motor to be an LMP1 engine? I would love to see them in protos but think they will go the smaller turbo route with it advertised as an Ecotec engine possibly derived from a future Ecotec project for a street car.
I am of a different mind on that. I think they will utilize the largest displacement engine possible. At this juncture that would be the LS7 which would have to be either destroked or, in my mind the most likely for this engine, sleeve it to decrease the bore while leaving the stroke the same to keep the torque as high as possible. Which is the performance vulue of the engine in its current configuration and highly desirable as evidenced by the performance of the diesels in acceleration. There are rumors of the LS7 being axed from the GM offerings, also is the shaky ground that the current GT-1 class sits on and the possibility of GT-2 becoming GT-1 and the fact that there has just been an LS3 homologated in GT-2 in the LGM/Riley Corvette C6 which gives them that option also if the class rules are adjusted to eliminate the current GT-1's and elevate the GT-2's. I was really hoping to see a DOHC 4 valve 6L direct injected V8 come out of the "Ultra" engine line (Northstar replacement) and into the Vette as an engine option <segue> to homologation but that is also rumored to be on the chopping block now (fracking cafe standards)!

L.P.
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 16:46 (Ref:2159050)   #11
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Originally Posted by HORNDAWG
I am of a different mind on that. I think they will utilize the largest displacement engine possible. At this juncture that would be the LS7 which would have to be either destroked or, in my mind the most likely for this engine, sleeve it to decrease the bore while leaving the stroke the same to keep the torque as high as possible. Which is the performance vulue of the engine in its current configuration and highly desirable as evidenced by the performance of the diesels in acceleration. There are rumors of the LS7 being axed from the GM offerings, also is the shaky ground that the current GT-1 class sits on and the possibility of GT-2 becoming GT-1 and the fact that there has just been an LS3 homologated in GT-2 in the LGM/Riley Corvette C6 which gives them that option also if the class rules are adjusted to eliminate the current GT-1's and elevate the GT-2's. I was really hoping to see a DOHC 4 valve 6L direct injected V8 come out of the "Ultra" engine line (Northstar replacement) and into the Vette as an engine option <segue> to homologation but that is also rumored to be on the chopping block now (fracking cafe standards)!

L.P.
Isn't that what Laurence Pearce put into his Lister LMP car. He never seemed to get the power and/or reliability with the prevailing retrictors. His was a six litre unit of a GM variety (from memory).
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 16:51 (Ref:2159055)   #12
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IF GM ( Chevy or Caddie badge) decide to RE ENTER LMP1, I am sure they and their engine builder partner will come up with an appropriate engine.

alternative fuel E85 maybe?

of heck with it just put in the Duramax Diesel with a few HP modifires.

The available Duramax Diesel 6.6L V8 Turbo engine features:
  • 365 horsepower @ 3200 rpm
  • 660 lb.-ft. of torque @ 1600 rpm
  • Class-leading diesel horsepower and overall torque
  • B5 biodiesel compatibility


I have this in my pick up. Does a darn fine job of hauling the race trailer.
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 16:52 (Ref:2159057)   #13
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Originally Posted by canam
Isn't that what Laurence Pearce put into his Lister LMP car. He never seemed to get the power and/or reliability with the prevailing retrictors. His was a six litre unit of a GM variety (from memory).
Are you comparing that program to the abilities of what a full on GM effort would bring to the table and expect the results to be the same?

L.P.
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 17:06 (Ref:2159068)   #14
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Definitely Not. He tried to achieve too much...particularly relating to COG...with too little cash. I believe that the car had immense potential but it was not to be. He did have the foresight though.

A full blown GM effort would entirely different.
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Old 22 Mar 2008, 17:15 (Ref:2159071)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AU N EGL
IF GM ( Chevy or Caddie badge) decide to RE ENTER LMP1, I am sure they and their engine builder partner will come up with an appropriate engine.

alternative fuel E85 maybe?

of heck with it just put in the Duramax Diesel with a few HP modifires.

The available Duramax Diesel 6.6L V8 Turbo engine features:
  • 365 horsepower @ 3200 rpm
  • 660 lb.-ft. of torque @ 1600 rpm
  • Class-leading diesel horsepower and overall torque
  • B5 biodiesel compatibility

I have this in my pick up. Does a darn fine job of hauling the race trailer.
Ok. O.T.
I will preface this with; this thread is about homologated GT-1 engines being utilized as P-1 engines.
That being said; If GM decided to go down the diesel path (highly possible) they would not use the 6.6L out of your P/U. Once again it is rumored that the Tonawanda plants future engine programs have been put on the chopping block. This is where the new Duramax HO line was to be developed for GM which was rumored to include both a 4.5L HO and 5.5L HO V8 in the program. I would have thought that if they decided to go diesel they would have/will choose the 5.5L HO V8 as their weapon of choice but....

L.P.

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Old 23 Mar 2008, 04:04 (Ref:2159335)   #16
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Lister tried to use the 5.7/6.0 LS1 or LS2(or de-bored LS7) in a modified Pescarolo 01 chassis in '07, but Lister ran short of funding, and the car was put on the back burner, and with Lister on indefinite hiatus(they basically shut down), the car might never see the light of day.

As for the basic rule, I emailed Mulsanne Mike about it, and he said that from the wording of the ACO regulations that any engine(regardless of original capacity as long as it meets the 6 liter max in the racing version) that meets production requirements can be used-including the Elan 6L8 and a de-bored/de-stroked Saleen 7.0 V8, as they share the same block, heads, and many internal parts.

IE, if there's a 1000 Ford/Saleen/Elan V8s, a 6 liter version should qualify under the ACO's rules.
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Old 23 Mar 2008, 05:44 (Ref:2159347)   #17
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Originally Posted by chernaudi
Lister tried to use the 5.7/6.0 LS1 or LS2(or de-bored LS7) in a modified Pescarolo 01 chassis in '07, but Lister ran short of funding, and the car was put on the back burner, and with Lister on indefinite hiatus(they basically shut down), the car might never see the light of day.

As for the basic rule, I emailed Mulsanne Mike about it, and he said that from the wording of the ACO regulations that any engine(regardless of original capacity as long as it meets the 6 liter max in the racing version) that meets production requirements can be used-including the Elan 6L8 and a de-bored/de-stroked Saleen 7.0 V8, as they share the same block, heads, and many internal parts.

IE, if there's a 1000 Ford/Saleen/Elan V8s, a 6 liter version should qualify under the ACO's rules.
I take it you mean any GT-1 homologated engine that, quote; "that any engine(regardless of original capacity as long as it meets the 6 liter max in the racing version) that meets production requirements can be used" as per the ACO rule
Art. 5.1.1 (1)
Semi stressed engine, homologated in LMGT1 and used in
a production car built in a quantity of at least 1000 units per
year


L.P.

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Old 23 Mar 2008, 07:26 (Ref:2159373)   #18
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL
IF GM ( Chevy or Caddie badge) decide to RE ENTER LMP1, I am sure they and their engine builder partner will come up with an appropriate engine.

alternative fuel E85 maybe?

of heck with it just put in the Duramax Diesel with a few HP modifires.

The available Duramax Diesel 6.6L V8 Turbo engine features:
  • 365 horsepower @ 3200 rpm
  • 660 lb.-ft. of torque @ 1600 rpm
  • Class-leading diesel horsepower and overall torque
  • B5 biodiesel compatibility


I have this in my pick up. Does a darn fine job of hauling the race trailer.
I would not bet a nicklel on bio-diesel, in was in the paper a couple of weeks ago that a bio-diesel plant being built in Dakota, which had, had construction slowed down, has now been just plain stopped.
The rising prices of grains, all grains due to the farmers riding the ethanol band-wagon, has made the base fuel component too expensive,and they cannot see a time-scale where it will drop down to affordable levels in the near future.
It's great, thei are cutting off their noses to spite their faces, gotta love it.
Bob
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Old 23 Mar 2008, 09:16 (Ref:2159441)   #19
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I would not bet a nicklel on bio-diesel, in was in the paper a couple of weeks ago that a bio-diesel plant being built in Dakota, which had, had construction slowed down, has now been just plain stopped.
The rising prices of grains, all grains due to the farmers riding the ethanol band-wagon, has made the base fuel component too expensive,and they cannot see a time-scale where it will drop down to affordable levels in the near future.
It's great, thei are cutting off their noses to spite their faces, gotta love it.
Bob
GM have recently done a deal with these guys: www.coskata.com. So any LMP1 engie effort would probably tie in with it.
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Old 23 Mar 2008, 14:50 (Ref:2159645)   #20
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GM have recently done a deal with these guys: www.coskata.com. So any LMP1 engie effort would probably tie in with it.
There is an article in Technology Review which exposes that little pipe dream for the bs it is.
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Old 23 Mar 2008, 16:00 (Ref:2159692)   #21
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There is an article in Technology Review which exposes that little pipe dream for the bs it is.
Bob
link?

I'd like to know what assumptions they are making in that. Theres is a lot of BS fying around both ways on the whole biofuel issue, and a lot of misinfomation is being spread by the environmental movement given the threat that a technological solution poses to their power and influence.

Besides, if the coskata method isn't up to much then theres always this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
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Old 23 Mar 2008, 19:22 (Ref:2159765)   #22
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Nawww I wont.
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Old 23 Mar 2008, 19:50 (Ref:2159786)   #23
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link?

I'd like to know what assumptions they are making in that. Theres is a lot of BS fying around both ways on the whole biofuel issue, and a lot of misinfomation is being spread by the environmental movement given the threat that a technological solution poses to their power and influence.

Besides, if the coskata method isn't up to much then theres always this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
Read the Feb. issue of Technology Review. I do not know if it is on-line.

Another part of the article is about how great switch-grass is, according to a scientist at the U of Minn., after which they go down the hall to the depart that deal with economic realities and blows the switch-grass band-wagon apart.

It is simple to do tens, or hundreds, of gallons in a lab., when it comes to millions of gallons, the economics change, DRASTICALLY.
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Old 24 Mar 2008, 10:33 (Ref:2160165)   #24
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Read the Feb. issue of Technology Review. I do not know if it is on-line.

Another part of the article is about how great switch-grass is, according to a scientist at the U of Minn., after which they go down the hall to the depart that deal with economic realities and blows the switch-grass band-wagon apart.

It is simple to do tens, or hundreds, of gallons in a lab., when it comes to millions of gallons, the economics change, DRASTICALLY.
Switchgrass? - we know thats BS for biofuel.

Coskata's method uses plastic, rubber and biological waste (the kind of stuff that would end up in landfill) to make biofuel. They just need to get more municipal waste and cellulosic sources in there.

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Old 24 Mar 2008, 16:11 (Ref:2160367)   #25
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Coskata's method uses plastic, rubber and biological waste (the kind of stuff that would end up in landfill) to make biofuel. They just need to get more municipal waste and cellulosic sources in there.
Same logistically problems as switch-grass, only worse as transport of fuel in is even more difficult.
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