It’s The Latte Latte Delta Tea Break 2018

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

Two things spring to mind, neither addressed in the Beeb article (or the thinking that provoked it).



First, the tax on fuel is massive (58p per litre for petrol & diesel in the UK, plus the VAT of course) so it won't be long before a way is devised to add this to the 'cheap' electrickery, how else will we continue to fund the lifestyle of all those redundant oldskool humans?



Second, where is the electricity coming from? It takes many years to plan and build power stations/wind farms/solar farms, and decades for nuclear. Maybe Trump will open up a few more old coal mines, that will keep lots of the above mentioned retirees employed toiling underground.


Progress!

I believe that the total tax take on road fuels comes to about £30 billion , so they would not easily cover that with anything else .
The price of electricity has been going up a lot , it is not getting cheap , because of the cost of subsidies for wind & solar power which never produce enough to cover their own cost .
Greenpeace tried to claim that the cost of wind energy was coming down , but had to take their adverts down as it was a total lie .
https://order-order.com/2018/01/19/g...e-wind-claims/

And you are right that we cannot produce enough electricity for electric cars , let alone transport .
Max generation capacity for the country is something like 50 odd GWH , which in Winter is not enough for demand & some has to be imported via the interconnectors . Off peak demand [ 11PM to 6 AM ] has about 5 to 10 GWH spare .
To charge up just the private cars in the country , [ using lowest rate home chargers , 3.6 KWH so about 10 miles for 1 hour charge ] , would take a total generation capacity of 130 GWH . And double that if commercials went electric.

So the whole Green Loonie idea that the ICE powered vehicles will soon be finished is just pure fantasy .

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

So the whole Green Loonie idea that the ICE powered vehicles will soon be finished is just pure fantasy .

Of course it is. Even if in 2040 only cars with alternative power incorporated somewhere in the drive train are allowed to be sold, there will be millions of Internal Combustion Engine only powered vehicles still on the road. It will take many years before they all cease to be usable....

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell;38562 cease to be [B

usable..[/B]..

I would agree if I understood the word.

[gary396]

I'm looking forward to the day when solar panels on the roof will provide sufficient energy to power our vehicles.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by bauble

I would agree if I understood the word.

Perhaps he should have said 'use a bauble'?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by grantp

The problem with Nuclear though is that in nearly all of the current forms it only make economic sense as base load - you have to run it all the time. In France there is some flexibility in the system - there has to be with over 70% electricity generated by nuclear - but the generation mix is very different to the UK.

But you actually have to have that base load available all of the time, for the days when there is no wind and little sun.

As an aside, On several occasions I have read articles whereby the Royal Navy or Rolls Royce refer to the fact that the N reactor in a Submarine produces enough power to supply electricity to XX,000 homes, or to a town the size of, say, Swindon. So, it would seem to me that instead of building a few very large nuclear power plants that are difficult to get funding and planning permission for, and for which the technology now needs to come from China or France, we should be building a larger number of "submarine sized" N power plants that could be built in less time, and might attract less opposition, around the country.
This might have the added benefit to the UK treasury of lowering the unit cost of such reactors for the Royal Navy future submarines.

[Peter Mallett]

I stand to be corrected but one of the things that makes the submarine reactor less costly is that it is surrounded by cooling water via a desalination plant. Not sure Swindon or Basingstoke has that facility.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I stand to be corrected but one of the things that makes the submarine reactor less costly is that it is surrounded by cooling water via a desalination plant. Not sure Swindon or Basingstoke has that facility.

I think you are right, Peter, but anywhere where there is a river could be a source of cooling water.

RR, and others are definitely working on "small scale modular nuclear power plants"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-step-closer/

[Mike Bell]

It’s all getting too complicated for my elderly noggin......

Seems the estate where my w/shop is situated also has a distribution point for some national parcel delivery business based there. As well as the self employed white vans to-ing and fro-ing (usually at treble the 10mph speed limit) all day, there is the odd ancient Ford Connect or Galaxy, Mitsu space cruiser etc. Plus a lady in a 51 reg 3dr Polo. I’ve watched this go past several times, laden completely to the roof, rear end dragging on the ground, and wondered if the driver has ever been stopped for being overloaded......

[Peter Mallett]

Lol, I was thinking of the quantity. Anyway back to the rebranding of fuel: This tweet from TomCoronel may assist.

https://twitter.com/WimocaRotterdam/...807612930?s=20

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by andy97

But you actually have to have that base load available all of the time, for the days when there is no wind and little sun.

As an aside, On several occasions I have read articles whereby the Royal Navy or Rolls Royce refer to the fact that the N reactor in a Submarine produces enough power to supply electricity to XX,000 homes, or to a town the size of, say, Swindon. So, it would seem to me that instead of building a few very large nuclear power plants that are difficult to get funding and planning permission for, and for which the technology now needs to come from China or France, we should be building a larger number of "submarine sized" N power plants that could be built in less time, and might attract less opposition, around the country.
This might have the added benefit to the UK treasury of lowering the unit cost of such reactors for the Royal Navy future submarines.

Couldn't they just run a long cable from all the submarines...
After all they aren't doing anything productive.

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Couldn't they just run a long cable from all the submarines...
After all they aren't doing anything productive.

Maybe they could use the submarines to provide the power for all the windmills they keep planting in the sea. Or have I got that the wrong way round?

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by John Elwin

Maybe they could use the submarines to provide the power for all the windmills they keep planting in the sea. Or have I got that the wrong way round?

You certainly need to find a source of energy to build the windmills.
A lot of the figures promoting their benefits seem to avoid that.

[Peter Mallett]

You also need lots precious metals and some seriously poisonous stuff to make them. Not to mention the concrete and the heat required to make the cement.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

You certainly need to find a source of energy to build the windmills.
A lot of the figures promoting their benefits seem to avoid that.

These wind generators certainly appear to work. Whenever I've been to somewhere where they are it's nearly always very windy...

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

It’s all getting too complicated for my elderly noggin......

It's all getting too depressing for mine.

[Mike Bell]

We’ve already got a cable between France (I think) and the UK so power can be shunted one way or the other, and another is being laid at the moment between Norfolk and Norway, for the same purpose.

My own (very non-expert) opinion is that the requirement for extra capacity will ramp up so slowly that the grid will be boosted to cope by all the stuff going on now and in the next few years. But I’m sure that many will disagree.....

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

You certainly need to find a source of energy to build the windmills.
A lot of the figures promoting their benefits seem to avoid that.

A hidden cost of the windmills you don't hear much about is the maintainance.

Last year we had a 4- and sometimes 6-man maintainance crew staying in our village. They were all from Portugal, but had three large German-registered rental vans. They were here for several weeks, during which time they actually did little work, through no fault of their own.

Their job was to go up the outside of the towers to carry out maintainance on the blades, a pretty dangerous job, I would imagine. Consequently, regulations prevent them from working in wind, rain or when there is the possibility of a storm. That must have been for much of the time that they were here. One of the guys told me he had just spent a month in Ireland, during which time he had only been able to work for one day. Not exactly cost-effective, is it?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Couldn't they just run a long cable from all the submarines...
After all they aren't doing anything productive.

I think opening a discussion about which activities are productive or not on a motorsport forum is pushing it a bit. Lol!

[bauble]

Is it possible to generate electricity from hot air?

If so I think I may be able to solve the Worlds energy problems.!


(On my own) Hastily added before some smart rr's did.

[grantp]

SMR Competition (Small Modular Reactor)

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...tion-phase-one

Recent amendments to the terms appicable to the applicants.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/rep...034966.article


Interestingly 18 months ago Rolls-Royce were talking up the potential for SMR's to be a key part of their long term business based on the Marine technology they currently offer and their experience with smaller than usual reactors compared to more typical Hinckley Point type projects.

This year they seem to omit any mention of SMRs (along with anything "Marine" which also seem to have gone from a great future opportunity to nothing in less than 12 months.)

Who knows what it all means?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

We’ve already got a cable between France (I think) and the UK so power can be shunted one way or the other, and another is being laid at the moment between Norfolk and Norway, for the same purpose.

My own (very non-expert) opinion is that the requirement for extra capacity will ramp up so slowly that the grid will be boosted to cope by all the stuff going on now and in the next few years. But I’m sure that many will disagree.....

There is also a cable to Holland, one to Eire and another to Northern Ireland.

Norway has huge natural Hydro power generation thus making a good partner for some reliable supply. Holland has recently had a few issues with its gas fields and France with its Nuclear plants and the Hulot policy of closing nuclear and building wind and solar. On both cases the possibly less reliable supply for critical demand loads (irrespective of any possible build out for additional capacity) make the connectors a little less attractive than might have been the case when they were commissioned.

There is plenty of potential for major fubar decisions in the way things related to energy generation and distribution are being handled at the moment.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

We’ve already got a cable between France (I think) and the UK so power can be shunted one way or the other, and another is being laid at the moment between Norfolk and Norway, for the same purpose.

My own (very non-expert) opinion is that the requirement for extra capacity will ramp up so slowly that the grid will be boosted to cope by all the stuff going on now and in the next few years. But I’m sure that many will disagree.....

Currant planning is for up to 10 GW of power to be imported via the Interconnectors at high demand times .
But , if France goes more EVs , then they will not have enough generating capacity for themselves , so will have no spare capacity to sell to us .

Approx figures are that , if half of our cars & commercials went EV , we would need another 150 GW generating capacity .
Which would need another 50 Hinkley C power stations , about £1000 billion , & about the same cost again to upgrade the grid .

That would cost , [ at todays prices ], over £1 Million for every family in the country .
A man of your means might be able to afford that Mike , but a lot of us might struggle .

[gary396]

Sorry to interrupt the flow of all you eco-warriors but if you're interested in the new series of Fifth Gear (these car shows are an acquired taste I know) then it is on Quest TV (Freeview) on Thursday nights.

It can also be watched online - for free, no login, no adverts (apart from Peugeot sponsors):

https://www.questod.co.uk/show/fifth-gear

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Approx figures are that , if half of our cars & commercials went EV , we would need another 150 GW generating capacity .

Come on, none of Europe’s full size trucks are electric (although there are a couple of vans on sale), and a very small percentage of cars are. In 2040 that percentage will be still be small, and of course battery EVs could be superseded by then- by hydrogen fuel cells or something.

Sorry, it is only my opinion, but I think there is an awful lot of scaremongering going on.....

Anyway, it may be topical but this discussion is probably turning some tenthers to drink.....