Honda Withdrawl from F1

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

No we are not agreeing at all. You may recall that at the very beginning of the hybrid era it was unseen installation issues that caused all sorts of issues and it took some time before the teams began to come to grips with the problems that arose. Before installation they obviously had very few problems because if they had foreseen them the problems would not have occurred.

Honda was in exactly the same place before the first race thus Honda had to sort out the issues they had and everyone was comparing them to all the other teams that had sorted out installation issues over a few seasons. This made them look particularly bad and if they had entered at the same time as everyone else the noise surrounding them would not have been so bad. Honda blew it because they did not take the time to do practise testing of their own to develop the PU in a car and on top of that the PU technically was not good enough anyway it was looked at.

I continue to be confused here. You talk of "Installation issues". I call out the need for earlier and better "integration testing". I view these as the same thing..

When I say "integration testing", I am saying the combination of the entire car, or at a minimum the monocoque, power unit, transmission and suspension. Then test that entire assembly on things like four post shaker rigs, entire chassis dynos that run race simulation, etc. It's my understanding that this level of testing did not take place until the Red Bull partnership. Or if it happened with McLaren, it was only after the car had been run on track during sanctioned testing days.

Are you saying the only way to accomplish this would have been to create some type of mule and run on a track?

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I continue to be confused here. You talk of "Installation issues". I call out the need for earlier and better "integration testing". I view these as the same thing.

Sorry, slight correction. I should have said, Integration testing can (hopefully should) expose installation issues. Testing exposes issues. You can't test ONLY the power unit in isolation. You test components in isolation, then you test them ALL together as an integrated unit. You also have to insure your test scenarios are representative (as possible) of the in use experience. No integration testing, or integration testing without representative scenarios is what caused their reliability issues.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

According to this article, Honda will continue with engine development.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...-bull/6494902/

[S griffin]

Let’s see how long they continue with it, I am still not sure RBR building will be sustainable long term

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Let’s see how long they continue with it, I am still not sure RBR building will be sustainable long term

Why not?

[GTRMagic]

If you thought about it... a rebadged Honda/RBE engine may have looked a lot cheaper (and more competitive) for the likes of Aston Martin to have kicked the tin for.

Everyone kept talking about the Chinese or Indian brands taking a branding position, yet post Covid they dont seem to be around anywhere

Most probable is a Saudi Aramco branding.. like VR46 MotoGP... oh wait..

[Greem]

News this morning that RB have another 5 ex-Mercedes HPP people joining them.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/red-b...ine-personnel/

Interesting times. They must have made them all an offer they couldn't refuse.

[steve nielsen]

Here's the teams official anouncement:

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/redbu...rengthens-team

So a lot of key Mercedes/AMG people moving to Red Bull powertrains

[veeten]

Okay folks, here's one to try on...
At present, the only major difference between an indycar v6 and a formula 1v6 is 600cc's and 3000rpm. In engineering, that's not a lot, but Honda is the only manufacturer in both series. How about another making that crossover, and no I don't mean Mercedes or Ferrari, even though they could.
I'm talking about a new player on the field, and the two teams presently at the back of the line would be perfect as a partner.
Just think... "bow tie"...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by veeten

Okay folks, here's one to try on...
At present, the only major difference between an indycar v6 and a formula 1v6 is 600cc's and 3000rpm. In engineering, that's not a lot, but Honda is the only manufacturer in both series. How about another making that crossover, and no I don't mean Mercedes or Ferrari, even though they could.
I'm talking about a new player on the field, and the two teams presently at the back of the line would be perfect as a partner.
Just think... "bow tie"...

I like the enthusiasm in your post.

But there is a massive difference between those two engine formulas which then makes the solutions very different. Decades ago, you could get away with a basic architecture being applicable to both series (think Cosworth DFV and variants), but today, the solutions are highly optimized for each set of regulations. Additionally while the current Indycar solutions are very nice bespoke race engines, they are a far cry from F1.

This is not to speak to the superiority of the "F1 way", because the current F1 engine regulations create such complex solutions, it's hard for even those with deep pockets to build a competitive solution in a reasonable time. Most bemoan the current regulations because of this.

Given the current F1 specification is on the tail end of it's life cycle, someone like GM (I assume you mean GM by the bowtie comment) would clearly want to wait until the next set of regulations show up and also hope they are much cheaper to build a competitive engine. Lastly, what benefit does GM have to run in F1 from a marketing perspective? I think it's probably the last place they would want to invest marketing money. The sport has next to zero penetration in the markets they focus on (broadly North America?) and the audience F1 typically plays to would match up more with premium brands and products (Mercedes, Ferrari, Alpine, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo). No knock on GM, but short of making this about Cadillac (as a premium brand) or the Corvette (as a halo car), I see little for them to gain from F1.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

I really can't visualise GM having the slightest interest.First of all,they have never had much of a focus on competition-at least officially.The Corvette campaign of the last few years is probably giving them a decent amount of exposure for the expenditure in those countries where there is some level of motorsport interest.The other consideration is that GM is becoming less significant on the global stage.The former largest car company on the planet has slipped a long way down the rankings now and seems to be focused on the Americas and a decent Chinese presence.My feeling is that any new manufacturer involvement is more likely to come from China,although since Geely automotive is the largest single shareholder in Daimler-Benz,you could argue that they are already there.I suppose when the next but one set of rules comes into force we might see a new manufacturer keen to showcase their superior electric technology.While there is still an IC element in the mix,its hard to imagine a large company throwing vast amounts of money at a project so far removed from their core business products and future plans.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I really can't visualise GM having the slightest interest.First of all,they have never had much of a focus on competition-at least officially.The Corvette campaign of the last few years is probably giving them a decent amount of exposure for the expenditure in those countries where there is some level of motorsport interest.The other consideration is that GM is becoming less significant on the global stage.The former largest car company on the planet has slipped a long way down the rankings now and seems to be focused on the Americas and a decent Chinese presence.My feeling is that any new manufacturer involvement is more likely to come from China,although since Geely automotive is the largest single shareholder in Daimler-Benz,you could argue that they are already there.I suppose when the next but one set of rules comes into force we might see a new manufacturer keen to showcase their superior electric technology.While there is still an IC element in the mix,its hard to imagine a large company throwing vast amounts of money at a project so far removed from their core business products and future plans.

To say GM never had much of a focus on competition or at least officially, isn't correct. Motorsport is a good marketing vehicle, no pun intended, for car manufacturers and GM certainly have focused on competition, primarily in the domestic market, by competing in IndyCar and NASCAR and predominantly with their Chevrolet brand.

GM have also been involved with other series, they first raced at Le Mans with the Corvette C-1 back in 1960 and continue to do so with the Corvette brand. More recently there is the WeatherTech SportsCar Championship with the Cadillac DPi-V.R. Therefore, considering which series GM are focusing to compete in and who they are marketing to, getting involved in F1 doesn't seem to fit their remit.

Regarding GM and global rankings, they are currently ranked 7th according to Investopedia.

https://www.investopedia.com/article...2016-tm-gm.asp

As for Daimler, this is their share holder structure and it doesn't mention Geely.

https://www.daimler.com/investors/sh...der-structure/

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

As for Daimler, this is their share holder structure and it doesn't mention Geely.

https://www.daimler.com/investors/sh...der-structure/

BJ, it's hidden in their investment arm, Tenaciou3 Prospect Investment Limited which holds 9.7%.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

BJ, it's hidden in their investment arm, Tenaciou3 Prospect Investment Limited which holds 9.7%.

I didn't know Tenaciou3 Prospect Investment Limited, was linked to Geely. I do now.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-d...-idUSKCN1GD5ST

[P38 in workshop]

I think post #362 reinforces my point.GM has a history of competition,but not at the highest level as they seem to lack the will.NASCAR I understand as it happens not too far from the hub of the GM universe,likewise IRL.They bailed out of Aussie Supercars and the Corvette programme was an honourable and respected one,but why did they choose to duck the top category at Le Mans?The short lived Cadillac campaign was a good indicator of where their heart,or company wallet,was focused.Really hard to see them as more than a fringe player now and the slide from the world's number one to seventh might not be solely due to avoiding top level competition and more connected with the accepted norms of Detroit.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I think post #362 reinforces my point.GM has a history of competition,but not at the highest level as they seem to lack the will.NASCAR I understand as it happens not too far from the hub of the GM universe,likewise IRL.They bailed out of Aussie Supercars and the Corvette programme was an honourable and respected one,but why did they choose to duck the top category at Le Mans?The short lived Cadillac campaign was a good indicator of where their heart,or company wallet,was focused.Really hard to see them as more than a fringe player now and the slide from the world's number one to seventh might not be solely due to avoiding top level competition and more connected with the accepted norms of Detroit.

I thought your point in post #361 was GM have never had much of a focus on competition? Post #362 shows that GM have focused on competition, concentrating on the domestic market and still do. Competing in NASCAR is far more relevant to the US car market. competing in F1 isn't. It's nothing to do with lacking the will.

GM haven't bailed from the Supercars Championship, that's a fabrication.
https://www.autosport.com/supercars/...78176/4978176/

As for ducking the main category at Le Mans, the Corvette is a sports car not a sports prototype.

Is the Cadillac program short lived? Last time I looked at the WeatherTech website, Cadillac were still competing.

[V8 Fireworks]

General Motors have given up on selling cars in Europe at all. Not Chevrolet (the rebadged Daewoos, closed down now), not Opel (sold to Peugeot), not Vauxhall (sold to Peugeot), not Cadillac (never sold as a BMW or Mercedes competitor in Europe in any great numbers, and not sold at all in Europe anymore).

There's a 0% chance of GM in Formula One IMO. [Despite being a world championship, Formula One is fundamentally European.]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

GM haven't bailed from the Supercars Championship, that's a fabrication.

Half a dozen individually right-hand-drive-converted Silverados, Camaros and Corvettes hardly constitutes still selling cars in Australia. General Motors have, realistically, given up on selling cars in Australia too...

It's all too hard it seems! All-in on profitable trucks and SUVs in the homeland...

General Motors have had so long to build compact cars to at least the same standard as Toyota and Honda, if not better, yet their small cars still recently had ridiculous problems like failing turbos, and they are giving up on selling them at all by the sounds of it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Half a dozen individually right-hand-drive-converted Silverados, Camaros and Corvettes hardly constitutes still selling cars in Australia. General Motors have, realistically, given up on selling cars in Australia too...
It's all too hard it seems! All-in on profitable trucks and SUVs in the homeland...

General Motors have had so long to build compact cars to at least the same standard as Toyota and Honda, if not better, yet their small cars still recently had ridiculous problems like failing turbos, and they are giving up on selling them at all by the sounds of it.

That's as may be but that doesn't change the fact GM haven't bailed from the Supercars Championship.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I think post #362 reinforces my point.GM has a history of competition,but not at the highest level as they seem to lack the will.NASCAR I understand as it happens not too far from the hub of the GM universe,likewise IRL.They bailed out of Aussie Supercars and the Corvette programme was an honourable and respected one,but why did they choose to duck the top category at Le Mans?The short lived Cadillac campaign was a good indicator of where their heart,or company wallet,was focused.Really hard to see them as more than a fringe player now and the slide from the world's number one to seventh might not be solely due to avoiding top level competition and more connected with the accepted norms of Detroit.

Just look at the rating for where GM sells the VAST majority of their products, Cup and even Busch and Trucks, ratings make F1 look like an informercial. More weekends than not practice outdraws the F1 races for viewers. Not gonna spend billions to meet thousands of eyes when you can spend millions to meet millions of eyes

[P38 in workshop]

There hasn't been a GM presence in the top Le Mans category since the Nigel Stroud designed Cadillacs briefly featured.The downgrading of the competition to let the Weather Tech cars and similar feature is probably a temporary hiccup.GM sending a few Camaro named cars to Australia isn't really likely to appease the Aussie fans,who have been Holden or Ford almost from birth.As pointed out in pot #369 they seem to focus on their own locale and the rest of the world is steadily moving ahead of them.If they had the initiative to promote the team behind the C8 Corvette to actually running the company and building better cars that might change for the better.None of which relates to the topic of Honda and it was their engine that propelled Max Verstappen to victory today and which will be mentioned around the world in news broadcasts and papers tomorrow.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

There hasn't been a GM presence in the top Le Mans category since the Nigel Stroud designed Cadillacs briefly featured.The downgrading of the competition to let the Weather Tech cars and similar feature is probably a temporary hiccup.GM sending a few Camaro named cars to Australia isn't really likely to appease the Aussie fans,who have been Holden or Ford almost from birth.As pointed out in pot #369 they seem to focus on their own locale and the rest of the world is steadily moving ahead of them.If they had the initiative to promote the team behind the C8 Corvette to actually running the company and building better cars that might change for the better.None of which relates to the topic of Honda and it was their engine that propelled Max Verstappen to victory today and which will be mentioned around the world in news broadcasts and papers tomorrow.

So far all the media I've seen said Max and Red Bull, not a mention of Honda. You just aren't going to get the engine name in the "general public" media as it takes up precious characters. Ferrari, MB, Renault great, Red Bull Honda, Mclaren Mercedes, Williams Mercedes just isn't going to make the non-motorsports media, they'll call it the team name and driver name, and move on to which celebrity is doing the next stupid thing. Motorsport media will use the full name but that's marketing to an ever shrinking group

[veeten]

Oh, BTW, it wouldn't be the first time that a GM-based product was used in the history of Formula 1.
Let's take the 'way back' machine to '65, when a drivers champ was building his own car for the upcoming season. That person was, of course, Jack Brabham. And the engine powering it was an Oldsmobile based 215 c.I. (3.5L) V8. Destroked and using an overhead cam cylinder head, the Repco-designed powerplant went on to win the '66 and '67 constructors championship.
Not bad for an engine that was supposed to be for basic economy use.
Also proves that, with the right people doing the job, (such as the work that Illmor is doing with Chevrolet on that Indy engine), anything is possible.

[veeten]

...not to mention, the BTCC and WTCC multiple champion Chevy Cruse. But, I guess that just doesn't "trip your trigger', does it?

Of course, O-fers in F1 like Toyota are acceptable, or when they win at Le Mans(when everyone else had left).
Speaking of leaving, Honda still hasn't changed their minds about F1. But they did sign on for the new rules for Indy, including the output increase and the hybrid systems.

[Adam43]

Crikey. That went deep.

No criticism to GM, but their achievements in the European part of motorsport is pretty minimal. So what? It's not what they are about.

[veeten]

This is true, of course the same could be said of a lot of auto manufacturers. They spend a couple of seasons in a particular sport, and then up and leave when it doesn't turn out in your favor.

Witness BMW, Toyota, Renault, and yet again, Honda.

They show up in sports where they can put their best foot forward, in both podiums and promotion. If they chose to "step outside their comfort zone", try something different, and it rewards them in either fashion, then why throw rocks at them for the attempt?

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that everyone wants to give most other manufacturers the benefit of the doubt, except for GM. Why?