A drivers dilemma

[bathurst77]

Riffing on this post in the Spanish GP thread

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

It must be horrible really. You work your whole life to get into one of the top teams in the sport and you get paired up with Lewis bloody Hamilton. It must take its toll eventually, knowing that your best is probably only good enough for 2nd place tops on a normal day.

So what would be better?

Being number 2 driver in top team with an all time great driver. Knowing you will only pick up wins here and there when the race gods smile your way.
Youre guaranteed lots of seconds, both in races and championships, but you know you will be in his shadow forever. If you continue to be a good deputy your career will be long and pay well (Bottas)

Or

Be number one in a lesser team. Knowing that most of the time you will be the best in your team, and good enough for wins and poles here and there and if all things fall your way, or the big team stumbles youre in a good place. Theres a chance you might be champ in a few years if your team finds the mojo, but this is never guaranteed, or your owners may get sick of looking like losers and quit completely. Either way for now 3rd is the best you can consistently achieve.

Any wins you do get will be hailed as heroic and you may be remembered for taking a 2nd string car and getting more out of it than expected. You will go down as "one of the greatest never to.." (Max etc)

So are you a Max or a Bottas?

[steve_r]

Interesting question.

I imagine that, initially at least, lots of drivers think that they are good enough to go on and become World Champion. Bottas makes the right noises in this respect. He only has to look at the guy he replaced for proof that it is possible to beat his teammate.

Eventually however drivers like Barichello, Berger and Irvine etc paired against someone like Schumacher and Senna presumably probably come to realise that unless the no1 driver gets injured or leaves they are never going to beat them regularly enough in the same car to win the WDC. I would be interested to ask them about this.

Do drivers still sign as defacto "no.2's" these days? Has Sainz signed as No.2 at Ferrari? Did Bottas sign a contract saying he is no.2 to Hamilton? I assume not, so in their mind, perhaps this is not a question that they need to answer when signing for a team.

[EastonNeston]

If you do a good job with a major manufacturer team, you'll almost certainly be employed by them as an ambassador for the rest of your life, which is a great way of ensuring a comfortable standard of living, as well as opening doors for other business ventures when you stop driving.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Do drivers still sign as defacto "no.2's" these days? Has Sainz signed as No.2 at Ferrari?

Hmmm, I hope not. I fully expect him to give Charles a darned good run for his money once he settles in fully.

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

If you do a good job with a major manufacturer team, you'll almost certainly be employed by them as an ambassador for the rest of your life, which is a great way of ensuring a comfortable standard of living, as well as opening doors for other business ventures when you stop driving.

I guess that may depend on whether he hangs around longer than this season (which I doubt). If he moves to a 'non-affiliated' team, presumably the gravy train will leave without him.... His best bet is to definitively accept his status and act as a dutiful #2 to ensure that Lewis wins another championship and Merc another WCC. An open declaration along those lines could secure him another season... however, as has already been suggested, I think Valteri knows his days at Merc are numbered.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I guess that may depend on whether he hangs around longer than this season (which I doubt). If he moves to a 'non-affiliated' team, presumably the gravy train will leave without him.... His best bet is to definitively accept his status and act as a dutiful #2 to ensure that Lewis wins another championship and Merc another WCC. An open declaration along those lines could secure him another season... however, as has already been suggested, I think Valteri knows his days at Merc are numbered.

This might depend on whether Mercedes are in a position to ensure that he is placed in one of their customer teams, possibly?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Eventually however drivers like Barichello, Berger and Irvine etc paired against someone like Schumacher and Senna presumably probably come to realise that unless the no1 driver gets injured or leaves they are never going to beat them regularly enough in the same car to win the WDC. I would be interested to ask them about this.

I seem to remember Irvine was quite open about knowing he wasn't as good as Schumacher, he was sure he could beat anyone else in equal machinery but not Schumacher.

I'd think being in Bottas' position is soul destroying - you know you've been in the best car for years and you've not been able to beat the only other guy in the same car. If you're comfortably the no1 driver at a team with an inferior car you can still convince yourself that given a better car you'd be world champion. Bottas doesn't have that crumb of comfort - he knows he can't match Hamilton.

[steve_r]

Lets give Bottas some credit - Bottas usually beats Hamilton a few times over a season, so he knows that he can do it. Obviously he doesn't look like he will ever do it enough to beat Hamilton in the WDC though.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

If you do a good job with a major manufacturer team, you'll almost certainly be employed by them as an ambassador for the rest of your life, which is a great way of ensuring a comfortable standard of living, as well as opening doors for other business ventures when you stop driving.

This for me.

For many, and i suspect most us working stiffs can relate, it is just a job and career for them as well.

Maybe thats cycnical but i think its more a result of becoming an adult?

F1 has a long history of journeymen drivers who have shown professionalism by accepting their role.

Alonso is doing it right now with Ocon imo.

[S griffin]

The fact that Bottas has beaten Hamilton on occasion shows he can rise to the occasion when he needs to. Let’s face it, it’s not like Verstappen/Albon last year

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The fact that Bottas has beaten Hamilton on occasion shows he can rise to the occasion when he needs to. Let’s face it, it’s not like Verstappen/Albon last year

'Has', yes. I'm not seeing much evidence though of much chance of him doing it this season, unless Hamilton has issues....

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This might depend on whether Mercedes are in a position to ensure that he is placed in one of their customer teams, possibly?

And if they really want to?

[Hawkwood]

This is an interesting dilemma.


When Rosberg was getting beaten by Hamilton and no-one gave him a chance, he morphed into a different person almost, showing far more mental strength than anyone creditted him with.
That shows Rosberg truly believed he could beat Hamilton to the title.


With Bottas, you can see in his eyes and on his face, he's defeated. He doesn't believe that he can beat Hamilton over a season. He just doesn't think that he do it. And therefore, he can't do it.


For all the effort Rosberg put in to beating Hamilton to the title, he realised he simply couldn't do that twice - he's been rather open about that, to his credit - so he retired. But I think everyone, including Bottas, knows that Bottas can't reach those heights over the course of a full season.

[S griffin]

It's been said many times that Bottas has made us realise how great Rosberg was. Of course Nico had to put in the extra effort to beat Hamilton, but that shows that he could go the extra mile when needed

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

For all the effort Rosberg put in to beating Hamilton to the title, he realised he simply couldn't do that twice - he's been rather open about that, to his credit - so he retired. But I think everyone, including Bottas, knows that Bottas can't reach those heights over the course of a full season.

If he was questioned about it, this type of acknowledgment comes down to a lack of passion and desire.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

If he was questioned about it, this type of acknowledgment comes down to a lack of passion and desire.

Or it is a recognition of the passion and desire that he had?

He had an immense level of passion and desire to achieve something in F1 - and once that achievement had been made, saw no reason to retain that pressure in his life.

Making a sensible decision for your own mental health does not automatically equate to a lack of passion and desire.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Nup Personally, I'd say his inspiration/passion is to emulate his dad.

I'd presume he wouldn't have cared otherwise.

I've never heard any words from Rosberg that demonstrate a desire to learn his craft further, exceed expectations, and be the best. Just get over the hump of winning the championship and take it from there.

Hence, the type of commentary you get from him.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I've never heard any words from Rosberg that demonstrate a desire to learn his craft further, exceed expectations, and be the best. Just get over the hump of winning the championship and take it from there.

Rosberg: "There was a time when my only mission in life was to win the championship. Now that it’s done, I can make more time for the other passions."

"I tried to perfect everything. I remember, once I decided to stop cycling to lose one kilogramme of leg weight. One kilo of body weight represents four hundredths of a second per lap. At Suzuka, for the Japanese Grand Prix, I was on pole by three hundredths. I got the win, Lewis messed up, and I had my crucial championship lead back. It’s all in the details in the end.”

"For as long as I can remember, I have been pursuing this one goal: to become World Champion. This was my ultimate dream as a child. There was nothing higher I could achieve. To succeed in sports, you need to be willing to make sacrifices. Everything else has to take a backseat"

"I’d miss out due to training or something. At that level it’s all about total commitment. This mindset enabled me not only to achieve my goals, but has heightened my enjoyment of them."

[E.B]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Rosberg:

What an interesting article. Fascinating insight.
Thoroughly enjoyed that. Thanks for sharing.

[chillibowl]

yeah great pull!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

If he was questioned about it, this type of acknowledgment comes down to a lack of passion and desire.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I've never heard any words from Rosberg that demonstrate a desire to learn his craft further, exceed expectations, and be the best. Just get over the hump of winning the championship and take it from there.

I find it interesting that so many people can come away with such different conclusions from the same information. My take has been it is not about a lack of passion, desire or a lack of interest in furthering his craft. But rather about the sacrifice that is needed. I think he knew he would have to give up A (friends, family, etc.) to achieve B (WDC). He wanted both A and B. He achieved B, so why should he continue to sacrifice A? He has different priorities. It doesn't make him a lesser man.

I have huge respect for Rosberg. In the end, I think Hamilton is overall better. I don't know, but I suspect Hamilton does not (year in, year out) put in the same level of effort (and sacrifice) that Rosberg did in the 2016 season. And to be fair to Hamilton, I expect he doesn't HAVE to do that just because he is that good. Again, to me that speaks to both the skill and enormous commitment that Rosberg had in 2016. He gave it his all and came out the winner. Beat (arguably) the best in his own car. Kudos to him!

As a side note, I think that same "sacrifice A to achieve B" logic is now firmly lodged in Hamilton's head (just look at his recent contract negotiations). How many championships is enough? What is he giving up to continue the grind? I think he is trying to see if he can reduce his level of sacrifice and yet still be WDC. Does that make him a lesser man? Not enough passion, desire or a lack of interest in furthering his craft?

Anyhow, back on topic and to the question as initially posed. Are you happy as a #2 in the best team or should you be #1 in lesser team?

I think most convince themselves that they can elevate themselves from #2 to #1 even if they are told they are a clear #2. With Rosberg being an example of this working. But I think when your teammate is legendary, your job can be soul destroying. That might be Bottas today.

If it were me, I would rather be #1 in a lesser team and knowing I had the full support of my team behind me vs. being in a faster car knowing they all expect me to just pick up the scraps. I would be a Max and not a Bottas.

Richard

[S griffin]

I respect Rosberg a lot for being honest. Admitting that he couldn’t beat Lewis on talent alone and admitting that he couldn’t do a season like 2016 again. He knew that he to go that extra mile and no doubt it took a lot out of him and he no doubt felt F1 wouldn’t be enjoyable if he did that every year. And he could retire happy knowing that all that extra work paid off with the title

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I seem to remember Irvine was quite open about knowing he wasn't as good as Schumacher, he was sure he could beat anyone else in equal machinery but not Schumacher.

Furthermore, I believe that Irvine was quite happy accepting his No.2 status to Schumacher given the very considerable pay-packet that he received from Ferrari. It helped him indulge in all the trappings that he could wish for.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Anyhow, back on topic and to the question as initially posed. Are you happy as a #2 in the best team or should you be #1 in lesser team? I think most convince themselves that they can elevate themselves from #2 to #1 even if they are told they are a clear #2. With Rosberg being an example of this working. But I think when your teammate is legendary, your job can be soul destroying. That might be Bottas today.
If it were me, I would rather be #1 in a lesser team and knowing I had the full support of my team behind me vs. being in a faster car knowing they all expect me to just pick up the scraps. I would be a Max and not a Bottas.Richard

All this depending on what your team is expecting from you and what kind of treatment you'll receive, car and strategy.
This reminds me a recent interview of P Gasly when he's been asked (talking about Hamilton) "Can you beat this man?". Pierre smiled and just said "Its not an easy task but as many others I'm here to beat him one day." Being the #2 in the best team using the best car and best strategy shows you the gap you've to fill if you really want to be the WC.

[BTCC frog]

Over a single lap, Valtteri Bottas is very nearly on the same level as Hamilton. The two things that let him down, in my opinion are tyre management skills (this is more a strength of Hamilton's than a weakness of Bottas'); and that I believe he struggles more with pressure than other drivers. That's why it annoyed me so much when journalists were asking him if he was going to be replaced by Russell midseason, when he hadn't even done badly this year (except Imola). It's a stupid question because it is obviously not going to happen, and it just piles extra pressure on Valtteri. I believe he is a lot better than he looks, because he is teammate to arguably the greatest of all time, and in a midfield team, with less pressure and a weaker teammate, I think he would thrive. Similarly, Pierre Gasly had a horrible time at Red Bull, where the pressure is on and his teammate is one of the very best, but is now doing a brilliant job at Alpha Tauri. I think it would be similar for Bottas if he went to a team like Alpine or Aston Martin, but I rate Bottas higher than Gasly, so I think he would thrive even more.

But at some point, Lewis Hamilton's skills are going to start to decline. No driver remains at their best forever, as we see with Vettel and Alonso now, for example, and there will be a time when Bottas becomes better than Hamilton. It is Bottas' job to keep hold of that Mercedes drive until that happens, so that he can capitalise when it does and beat the challenge of Verstappen and Leclerc. Luck needs to be on his side as well, as the Mercedes still needs to be the fastest car when that happens. The other possible scenario is, of course, that Hamilton retires and Bottas is up against Russell for the championship, and I think Bottas would beat Russell over a full season.


So to answer the question, a driver's main aim in Formula 1 is to be World Champion. Assuming that it is Bottas' choice on whether to stay at Mercedes or not (which is obviously untrue, but it is what the question implies), it is entirely possible that Bottas could end up a World Champion in the future, either beating a declining Lewis Hamilton, or George Russell in the same car. Mercedes need to have the best car, but that is still what I see as most likely in 2022, as they have made it through rule changes, and remained the team to beat, before. If Bottas left to go to Alpine, for example, he would almost certainly do a better job. He would appear a far better driver, and would enjoy himself more, with less pressure on him. But he would never be world champion (barring some freak change in the pecking order like 2009), and he would definitely win fewer races. So my answer to the question is that it's better to be the number two at the best team, unless the driver at the lesser team is likely to have a genuine shot at the title in the future like Verstappen is. I would rather be in Verstappen's position right now than Bottas', and I would probably pick Leclerc or Norris over Bottas too, simply because they still have a long time left in the sport so has a greater chance of being world champion. A good comparative driver, in my opinion, is Ricciardo, as he is at a similar stage in his career to Bottas, and also if Bottas left Mercedes, he would be in a similar situation to Ricciardo, most likely. I think Bottas has a better chance of being World Champion in the future than Ricciardo, so I think Bottas' best option is to stay put.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

All this depending on what your team is expecting from you and what kind of treatment you'll receive, car and strategy.
This reminds me a recent interview of P Gasly when he's been asked (talking about Hamilton) "Can you beat this man?". Pierre smiled and just said "Its not an easy task but as many others I'm here to beat him one day." Being the #2 in the best team using the best car and best strategy shows you the gap you've to fill if you really want to be the WC.

Absolutely agree it's a multi-dimensional problem. How the team expects to deploy (i.e. strategy) the two drivers is one as you say. Are they allowed to race, or does one support the other. Your comment on being #2 in the best team just allows you to fully measure yourself as to the gap between you and a WDC is perfect. And I think that is the logic many #2 drivers use. They are there to beat the #1 and it's up to them to close the gap. If the team allows that to happen! Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they do and #2 is not able to close the gap either!

Bottas for example. On a good day, he can beat Hamilton. But on most days Hamilton beats Bottas and usually it's not close. Hamilton has a level of performance consistency that others wish they had. And when down, he is able to extract himself out of a hole.

Richard

[tux]

If it was me id get very depressed about it HOWEVER thats why i haven't achieved anything in my life.