Who is the Greatest F1 driver of all time?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Tourer

First and most critical thing is that there'll be many, many different understandings of what defines "the greatest" across the range of posters here. So, for a poll to be meaningful in any way, the OP should at least offer their proposed definition, so that we can sort that out, prior to any list or any voting.

It was exactly this dynamic in the Hamilton thread that prompted the polls.

It's appealing to think that it's just a case of agreeing some criteria then debating logically. But that isn't how the brain tends to work. More typical is to come to a conclusion (consciously or not) then look for evidence and criteria to support it. So in fact here the entire discussion/debate is about the weighting to be given to different criteria. The choice of GOAT is quite easy for any given set/weighting of elements.

I'm not claiming to be immune to this, none of us are. I disregard anything that happened off the track, mark down for unsporting behaviour on it and play down car dominance because it's always been that way. That leaves me with Hamilton. Or, if I'm being more honest, I think the answer is Hamilton and I have assembled that collection of criteria to kid myself I'm making a rational rather than emotional choice.

[S griffin]

To be fair it’s very hard to pick one. So many variables can define a drivers career. But it’s not that hard to pick the candidates. Once you pick the candidates it becomes easier to pick the greatest.

Anyway this thread has been great food for thought. For me when deciding the greatest, whether you like them or not should not come into it. For me it’s about what they did with their equipment and how much their greatness contributed to the sport

[Peter Mallett]

Interesting that the list excludes Derek Warwick, Eddie Cheever and Marc Surer. And the most exciting driver of all time, Andrea De Cesaris. And as for nicest bloke we've excluded Jack Lafferty.

[coppice]

After my distant , and now sadly late relative Jimmy Somervail , who raced in the odd Fifties Grand Prix .

[Peter Mallett]

Yes those 50s GPs were odd at times.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Who is the Greatest F1 driver since the very first race in 1950?

I don't often reply to questions such as this but you may be able to help me so I can. Please define what makes the greatest driver. To make a judgement call on the greatest driver we should all be working from the same definition. Quite frankly I don't think it is possible to define what makes the greatest driver so I will sit on the side lines and watch.

[Aysedasi]

I'm not going to try, because I can't. But that doesn't stop me from voting on my opinion of the greatest driver of all time. I think we each know - and can state the name in a nanosecond - who we personally believe is the greatest driver of all time. Dissecting the criteria serves no real purpose as it's essentially a forlorn task... There are votes here for Kimi, for Gilles and for Fernando, for example, drivers who on results alone wouldn't ordinarily feature in a top 5 or even a top 10, so I suspect many will just have voted for their favourite driver, the one whose performances really made F1 that little bit special for them. That's certainly how I voted and I needed no time to think about it or analyse anything.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

I don't often reply to questions such as this but you may be able to help me so I can. Please define what makes the greatest driver. To make a judgement call on the greatest driver we should all be working from the same definition. Quite frankly I don't think it is possible to define what makes the greatest driver so I will sit on the side lines and watch.

No offense to OP on creation of this poll. But this question of how to define the "greatest driver" is an exercise in futility. That is why I voted for Kimi. Because I find him an interesting character. So I voted for him to be the "greatest driver" based upon my own arbitrary judgement.

Richard

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

No offense to OP on creation of this poll. But this question of how to define the "greatest driver" is an exercise in futility. That is why I voted for Kimi. Because I find him an interesting character. So I voted for him to be the "greatest driver" based upon my own arbitrary judgement.

Richard

Exactly my point so why the unanswerable question? My memory goes back a lot longer than most here so I would have a wider view having seen far more top drivers race.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

That is why I voted for Kimi. Because I find him an interesting character. So I voted for him to be the "greatest driver" based upon my own arbitrary judgement.

Since there is no possible combination of non-subjective or un-caveated criteria, absolutely everybody is exercising arbitrary judgement. Even those who carefully list their assesment process are doing so by choosing and weighing criteria subjectively.

That’s not futile, that’s what makes it fun. As I said a few posts ago, the GOAT for any particular set of criteria is fairly obvious, which means that the discussion is in fact all about the criteria, with all the wonderful mental contortions, post-rationalisations, faux-rational logic, non-sequiteurs and barely-concealed personal preferences such debate inevitably entails.

Given all this, it’s actually remarkable that the same few drivers always float to the top. Raikonnen isn’t one if them however .

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Since there is no possible combination of non-subjective or un-caveated criteria, absolutely everybody is exercising arbitrary judgement. Even those who carefully list their assesment process are doing so by choosing and weighing criteria subjectively.

That’s not futile, that’s what makes it fun. As I said a few posts ago, the GOAT for any particular set of criteria is fairly obvious, which means that the discussion is in fact all about the criteria, with all the wonderful mental contortions, post-rationalisations, faux-rational logic, non-sequiteurs and barely-concealed personal preferences such debate inevitably entails.

Given all this, it’s actually remarkable that the same few drivers always float to the top. Raikonnen isn’t one if them however .

Exactly so. (Not Raikkonen specifically - the rest, I mean...:0).

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Given all this, it’s actually remarkable that the same few drivers always float to the top. Raikonnen isn’t one if them however .

You may not like my Kimi vote. But as you say, the usual suspects always float to the top. But deciding on who is #1 might be fun/entertaining. It still is generally futile. There is no consensus. But knock yourselves out and fun!

Richard

[Aysedasi]

It doesn't bother me at all that you would select Kimi, based on my own 'criteria' at post #32, it's entirely justifiable. I'm sure Pete would agree, anyway!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It doesn't bother me at all that you would select Kimi, based on my own 'criteria' at post #32, it's entirely justifiable. I'm sure Pete would agree, anyway!

I keep waiting for him to bump Kimi up in the rankings. Given the poll as it stands today, another vote and he would be tied with Schumacher and one short of Prost! Kimi just one vote from mixing it up with the other usual suspects!

Richard

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It doesn't bother me at all that you would select Kimi, based on my own 'criteria' at post #32, it's entirely justifiable. I'm sure Pete would agree, anyway!

It got my approval certainly. I actually voted for Clark, but only because I felt a vote for my childhood hero to be more appropriate than my hero as a youth (Lauda) or my more recent hero (Kimi). Voting for Clark was also the only way one of my heroes would be nearer to or at the top. Plus (and I am not a Hamilton hater) I did not want to see a modern driver taking the GOAT honour, which I personally believe belongs to another era. Rightly or wrongly.

By saying that I am not implying others to have put in wasted votes.
Chacun �* son goût

[S griffin]

I can see why people voted the way they did. Certainly when you have so many things that are different in each era it’s hard to pick one. For me there are some I wouldn’t have voted for, like Lauda or Verstappen. But there are plenty of candidates from each era. Moss, Clark, Prost, Hakkinen, Raikkonen etc. Personally I think it’s important to have a good knowledge and understanding of F1 history to do this sort of thing.

Overall I can’t argue all multiple champions deserve a nomination, you can’t win at least 3 titles unless you have the top talent to do that. But then are also those who won only 1 or 2 titles or never won the title at all who were just as great or maybe even greater. The fact is you don’t always need statistics to decide who’s among the greatest. The fact is Raikkonen is one of the greatest of this era, despite only winning one title. So is Surtees. For me the great drivers just have that extra that separates them from the rest

Anyway this has been a more fun discussion than I thought

[Tourer]

As we are setting our own criteria for "the greatest", I gave it a few days to percolate around in my head.

I thought about all sorts of things - beating a teammate also on the list consistently for example, relative time gaps to that teammate, regularly winning in a car not ideal etc etc.

Ultimately, I came up with one name who stands above all the others in achievement. Won 3 WDCs (2 of them back-to-back - rare back then), beat team mates who either were or should have been on the list & some of whom won World Championships, mentored future talented leaders within the sport, created quite a dynasty of talent and was a MUCH better driver than people tend to recall, still winning in his final year of F1 at the age of 44.

The feat that he is most remembered for and which none of those on the list other than him have achieved is that he not only won races for his own team in his own car but that he won the World Championship for his own team, driving his own car - so far the only driver ever to have done that and an achievement that stands him head and shoulders above all the others - I speak of course about Jack Brabham.

Not making this call due to being a fellow Oz but because he is demonstrably the Greatest of All Time due to him doing so much more than any other driver on the list.

Oh, by the way - given the legacy that he created, it feels really wrong that Bruce McLaren is not on that list.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

But deciding on who is #1 might be fun/entertaining. It still is generally futile.

I bet you're a hoot at parties .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Ultimately, I came up with one name who stands above all the others in achievement. Won 3 WDCs (2 of them back-to-back - rare back then), beat team mates who either were or should have been on the list & some of whom won World Championships, mentored future talented leaders within the sport, created quite a dynasty of talent and was a MUCH better driver than people tend to recall, still winning in his final year of F1 at the age of 44.

I respect this - and perfect justification for why he is your greatest.

To counter - why I think his talent is not as highly rated by others may be the inconsistency. His peaks were not as high as the peaks of others, and his troughs lasted longer than some of his peers:



His inconsistency is described thus:

In direct head-to-heads, Brabham was beaten by several other greats of his era, including Jim Clark, Dan Gurney, Jochen Rindt, and Jacky Ickx. But at his absolute best, in the period 1959-1960 (when racing was his sole focus), the only driver on the grid who was clearly quicker was Stirling Moss.
Brabham’s season performances are curiously depressed across the period 1961-1965. This corresponds to the period in which F1 used a smaller engine formula, resulting in less powerful cars, perhaps not suiting Brabham’s style. However, it also a period in which Brabham was keenly focused on the development of his own team.

However - if you haven't already, why not continue to vote for Brabham as he (hopefully for you) progresses through the bracket? The total number of votes in each match is relatively small, so your vote might make a big difference.

One thing is for certain, his legacy will be remembered for a long time.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I bet you're a hoot at parties .

I think so. Sorry to be a pooper at this party.

Richard

[chrisklein90]

Do you guys agree with this article?

https://drivetribe.com/p/who-are-the...SK6RW4AwQUmFAA

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I respect this - and perfect justification for why he is your greatest.

To counter - why I think his talent is not as highly rated by others may be the inconsistency. His peaks were not as high as the peaks of others, and his troughs lasted longer than some of his peers:

One thing is for certain, his legacy will be remembered for a long time.

Agree with inconsistency and also agree that most likely that was all about getting his own team up and running. Even if he was "just" the driver in a completely new team, it would have taken some time to get consistent.

[fieldodreams79]

since my vote and post here clearly caused the server fire, I'll try to repost on the slower 'merican servers.

Sterling Moss is clearly the best ever.

[Another Bob]

Fangio by all stats is the clear best driver of all times.


Fangio still is even after Hamilton has now won 7 titles.



Also, Brabham is the 9th greatest driver of all time. not this 47th crap.



Just add up all the percentages for each stat in crmalcolms table and see what you get.


I did it after Hamilton's 7th title win from my stats file, but couldn't be fagged to add up the crmalcolm list as in his post.


Ill leave that to someone else and see what they come up with in cold hard figures to see if I'm correct or not.

[crmalcolm]

Round Three of the bracket is underway - full details here