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Old 10 Jun 2011, 03:05 (Ref:2894876)   #1
Holt
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Holt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHolt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

Roughly 13 months ago I suggested the ideas behind the Delta Wing come to sportscars

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....0&postcount=24

Now my wildest dream will come true

http://www.motorward.com/2011/06/del...-2012-le-mans/

This car will win top speed on the Mulsanne at just 325 HP

What do you think?

Last edited by Bentley03; 5 May 2012 at 10:03.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 05:28 (Ref:2894889)   #2
the real Stig
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Car has rear wheel steering
Try driving backwards at speed and see how well that works.
Thrust SSC had rear wheel steering, but it didn't have to make the Arnarge corner.

Front of car
Has no room for front tunnel/ground effect generator.
Has no room for front suspension.

Rear of car
Very little package for tunnel(s).
Steering and power delivery to rear tires.

Power/engine
Can M-mike run a CoD study for 300hp and typical lemans speeds pls?
where are the cooling ducts? Radiators? Air intake?
Take a 300hp caterham and see if it can break 5minutes at lemans.

We'll not be seeing a car resembeling a lawn dart this time next year, I wager.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 06:01 (Ref:2894892)   #3
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Originally Posted by the real Stig View Post
Car has rear wheel steering
Try driving backwards at speed and see how well that works.
Thrust SSC had rear wheel steering, but it didn't have to make the Arnarge corner.

Front of car
Has no room for front tunnel/ground effect generator.
Has no room for front suspension.

Rear of car
Very little package for tunnel(s).
Steering and power delivery to rear tires.

Power/engine
Can M-mike run a CoD study for 300hp and typical lemans speeds pls?
where are the cooling ducts? Radiators? Air intake?
Take a 300hp caterham and see if it can break 5minutes at lemans.

We'll not be seeing a car resembeling a lawn dart this time next year, I wager.
You'll find the Deltawing does have front steering. I remember reading an article about how they had to be clever with the geometry to get enough lock (remember this was originally ment to be an indycar, for both oval and road course). Indeed, look at the video http://deltawingracing.com/2010/02/simulation-videos-2/

However, I do agree about the front aero... will they generate enough downforce with the underbody tunnels (again look at the rear view of the indycar proposal... big tunnels!) to negate the need for front wing?

Last edited by Try Hard; 10 Jun 2011 at 06:19.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 07:08 (Ref:2894911)   #4
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I see a bigger problem: look at the width of those front wheels... combined they are about 1/3rd of the width of the frontwheels of other prototype cars! And less width=smaller contact patch with tarmac=less grip. No way they can steer this car through the various chicanes in anger. And I doubt as to wether the increased downforce the body of the car generates can make up for this.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 15:57 (Ref:2895203)   #5
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Holt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHolt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by RichardRenes View Post
I see a bigger problem: look at the width of those front wheels... combined they are about 1/3rd of the width of the frontwheels of other prototype cars! And less width=smaller contact patch with tarmac=less grip. No way they can steer this car through the various chicanes in anger. And I doubt as to wether the increased downforce the body of the car generates can make up for this.
Motorcycles have little contact patch on the front tire but they corner well.

Side cars single front tire doesnt have a large contact patch and it corners well.

It weighs 880 lbs compared to a 908 or R18 weighing 2000 lbs so that will help it corner.

I think it running LMP2 lap times is not out of the question

And if they give it a 60 liter tank it could go 16+ laps at the estimated 12mpg!

Last edited by Holt; 10 Jun 2011 at 16:05.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 18:59 (Ref:2895319)   #6
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Originally Posted by Holt View Post
Motorcycles have little contact patch on the front tire but they corner well.
Just like to point out that bikes can turn sharper than cars, but are not as quick through larger turns such as Porsche curves. Most if not all bike v supercar battles shows the bike being dusted in the turns.

On topic: If this is the future of sports car racing, no thank you. I'll take my money elsewhere. As for simulation videos, how much can I pay someone to make my Jeep do a 3:22 lap at la sarthe?

As for weight, why do we need the genital shape for that weight? I find it hard to believe that manufacturers wouldn't be able to design p1 cars several hundred pounds lighter than they are now if it meant a smaller car overall.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 14:24 (Ref:2895142)   #7
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Originally Posted by Try Hard View Post
You'll find the Deltawing does have front steering. I remember reading an article about how they had to be clever with the geometry to get enough lock (remember this was originally ment to be an indycar, for both oval and road course). Indeed, look at the video http://deltawingracing.com/2010/02/simulation-videos-2/
originally delta wing only had 3 wheels the from being a single non-steering fat tire, this was then changed to twin front tires to gain more credibility. It's was originally designed as rear steering which is one of the reasons why one of the engine designers in the league distanced it's self from the project. (I'm very close to Indy car racing & lemans design and this is what I know).

So may be to gain more credibility they've switched to front steer, only I'm guessing if they have they've not figured out how to do it yet. The under model has no cut outs for steering movement and even if it did I can't imagine how you package a pair of wishbones, springs, dampers and a rack is such a narrow package. I can't see the packaging it especially considering the lock required to negotiate chicanes and Arnarge.

The closest thing to delta wing I can think of is the Honda F1 land speed car.
Really light, no wings but big power.

I'm thinking this project is like Delorian, tax payers beware. (government funding for green energy research)
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 01:16 (Ref:2899900)   #8
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Originally Posted by the real Stig View Post
originally delta wing only had 3 wheels the from being a single non-steering fat tire, this was then changed to twin front tires to gain more credibility. It's was originally designed as rear steering which is one of the reasons why one of the engine designers in the league distanced it's self from the project. (I'm very close to Indy car racing & lemans design and this is what I know).

So may be to gain more credibility they've switched to front steer, only I'm guessing if they have they've not figured out how to do it yet. The under model has no cut outs for steering movement and even if it did I can't imagine how you package a pair of wishbones, springs, dampers and a rack is such a narrow package. I can't see the packaging it especially considering the lock required to negotiate chicanes and Arnarge.

The closest thing to delta wing I can think of is the Honda F1 land speed car.
Really light, no wings but big power.

I'm thinking this project is like Delorian, tax payers beware. (government funding for green energy research)
Did you actually bother to watch the video/read the information on the car? Second video down on the link I posted... plenty of lock there!

Gordon Kirby wrote a good, balanced article about the DeltaWing (with views from both the guys involved with DW, and John Barnard), and the front suspension is described in there, steering included. It's simply dual wishbones, with directly attached upright shocks. Pretty simple really.

(picture taken from the Kirby article)

You keep citting the mock-ups as not having cut-outs for steering, as far as I'm aware they don't have engines either, so take those with a pinch of salt!

The original IRL proposal DID have front steering/two wheels (the Kirby article was written before the LM car came out), and as far as I'm aware, thats the way the LM car is done. I think you want to check your sources on that front, and check out that article!

Anyway, is the car right for LM? I'm currently un-decided, it's good to see something different, but will is it what we want for the future of the race?
IMO, as an IRL car, the concept worked, but for LM, I'm not so sure.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 11:39 (Ref:2895032)   #9
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Originally Posted by the real Stig View Post
Power/engine
Can M-mike run a CoD study for 300hp and typical lemans speeds pls?
where are the cooling ducts? Radiators? Air intake?
Take a 300hp caterham and see if it can break 5minutes at lemans.

We'll not be seeing a car resembeling a lawn dart this time next year, I wager.
DeltaWing on there website state a Cd of 0.24. For what it is worth wiki has a .7 Cd for Caterham. Also based on Mikes work current closed top LMP1s have a Cd of some were in the low to mid 0.4s for Le Mans.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 12:38 (Ref:2895073)   #10
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If they run the engine at Le Mans they were planning to in Indycars they'll run out of horsepower on the Mulsanne I'd reckon.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 13:19 (Ref:2895093)   #11
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I think safety could be an issue. If a Delta wing center-punched a car like the #1 R18 did on Wednesday it could end up with some very unfortunate results.

It's also pretty unattractive, and you can't discount looks and mass appeal of any car. I a pretty positive, glass is half-full person when it comes to motor racing, but this thing is just....wrong.

Rather than trying to re-invent the proverbial wheel, why not re-legalize ground effect tunnels for Prototypes, and limit the more drag-inducing external aero elements? You get better efficiency, better looks, and don't have to worry about all the stuff like fitting in a pit lane designed for normal cars, garages designed for normal cars, safety for other competitors, marshals, etc.

Someone else mentioned this on the Midweek Motorsport forum, but the fact that the Mulsanne is fairly rutted, and the two rear wheels will be riding in the ruts and the front wheels on the crest of the road will promote a very unstable condition.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 13:22 (Ref:2895097)   #12
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Some early prototype testing in Britain..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSaIv_5-Mho
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 13:20 (Ref:2895096)   #13
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Oh yes, I'm sure the designers at Delta Wing have completely forgotten that Le Mans has corners, back to the drawing board for them I guess

Seriously guys, come on, why would they design a car that they think can't turn a sharp bend?
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 07:10 (Ref:2894912)   #14
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I want to see how many rear corners are removed by clipping inside walls.. with the front being so much narrower than the rear I expect the drivers to misjudge where the back end is....
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 13:29 (Ref:2895103)   #15
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My question is why? What does this achieve?

My contempt is the money being spent by various groups of Americans, including the ALMS principle, when the money could be spent on a REAL entry, that could run LM and support the ALMS.
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