Recruitment of new marshals

[Tony_J]

I know, I know, but at my advanced years flag waving takes up all my energy!!!

[Stephen Green]

Nuff sed

[wiggles]

(Tony_J)
wiggles, I agree with your ideas & logic. The problem then becomes one of how does your exObs know what you've done before, unless you work with the same team week after week, a situation I'm not that enthusiatic about

Yeah... True. Although the X.OB. This weekend asked me for my 'experience card'. Apparently this is something you get as a trainee through the BRSCC (i'm not member, so I didn't have one) that explains what you have and haven't done.

Makes some sense, each time i've been on post with a new observer or I/O they have been accomadating but slight wary as to what they should expose me to as they haven't met me before and don't know what my exact level of experience is.

(Evilpumpkin)
No I think it makes sense wiggles. (nice Douglas Adams quote mod by the way! ) I would agree.

Freeeeeeow.

I assume you got your sig btw!

Yup!

[Tony_J]

Haven't heard of the 'experience card' before. Seems like a good idea. Hopefully the Obs make good [sensible] use of it.

[wiggles]

Well, that might not be its actual name. It has things on it like 'used fire bottle' (apparently).

[Dave Brand]

A few comments on recent posts in this thread.

Wiggles, I think your approach is the right one, although I'll admit to making every effort to get rid of the dreaded white badge as quickly as possible. However, once I'd got my green badge, I did something like thirteen meetings before submitting my card for an upgrade, the purpose of htat being to put myself in the position where I couldn't get another upgrade this year.

I wouldn't worry to much about what you need to do to get a signature - the X-Obs will, in my experience, take into account how many signatures you have on your card when deciding whether or not to give you a signature - the first two are easy, the last two difficult!

Pinki, I don't think what you suggest is possible. As I understand the rules, the X-Obs must actually observe how anyone who has put in their card for an upgrade performs the relevant duty.

The only time-scale stipulated on the upgrading path is course (green) to observer, which requires a minimum of three years. Everything else is just a matter of getting the required signatures &, of course, MSA approval.

EP, Incident Handling training, necessary for the upgrade from course (green) to incident (red) does include simulated incidents.

The whole question of grading is something of a lottery. I was lucky when upgrading from novice, firstly that at just about every meeting there was an X-Obs on post & secondly that at most meetings I had enough to do to justify a signature. (Kaybee actually got her last signature at a meeting where I had absolutely nothing to do - she was even more insufferable than usual for a couple of weeks!)

When all's said & done, a badge is only an indication of a certain level of experience - some people have ten meetings' experience, some have one meeting's experience repeated ten times.

[Stuart Hill]

[i]When all's said & done, a badge is only an indication of a certain level of experience - some people have ten meetings' experience, some have one meeting's experience repeated ten times. [/B]

Having been a Chief Marshal on the hills, I quite agree with Dave's comments. Many times I made the mistake of allocating someone purely on the grade they were wearing rather than any knowledge I had about their experience. Some is this was my fault, (assuming without asking any questions) but a lot was due to the fact that too many X's view a grading card as an attendance record!! Hopefully the new card will make them aware of the difference.

On the other hand, I know many marshals that have no grading at all. They just attend their local venue and maybe one or two others and have never bothered to join the scheme. No grade = No experience??? I don't think so!! These people probably attend more Hillclimb incidents in a single season than most Circuit marshals do on their way to a red grade. Does this make them better??? or worse???

Neither and yet both. They could be an Observer at a speed event and yet be a novice on circuits, for all their experience. It works the other way as well. Whilst I could do any marshalling duty at a speed event i could no more be an observer at a circuit than walk to the USA !!!!

So to sum up, grading is useful as it encourages people to strive to become better marshals and to attend training days but it doesn't mean as much as experience. You can have all the grades you like but nothing beats the "days on the bank".

Just on the subject of newcomers at any of the Midland hills, anyone attending any of the 3 Hills will always (numbers permitting) be with an experienced Hillclimb marshal just to make sure that they learn the different ways that hillclimbs work, not to teach them how to marshal. That being said, any first time marshals always tend to be allocated to me so warn them !!!! :-)

[KayBee]

Pete everything was great, especially you arranging for the Grading Secretary for BMMC North Region and Northern Half (of the country) Training Liaison person to be there, not forgetiing the hot drinks and biscuits at sign on.

When I did the Fire Training for my Green badge last year I got chatting to the then Training Co-Ordinator who told me that one of the reasons that they ran the training day was so that Marshals could learn and then practise on subsequent training days their fire putting out skills. He also added that although he had been marshalling for over twenty years he had only put out a few fires in all that time.

Whilst there I also asked him if I could feel an empty fire extinguisher so that I knew the difference and it was surprising the number of people who, once I ahad asked, came and tested it. I was somewhat surprised at how fragile the empty bottles seemed to me - when empty the shell appears to me to be like eggshell.

On his way to his Green badge Dave experienced two things which we were assured, at the training day, don't usually happen, these were: having to right an upside down car with the person still inside and assisting with putting a fire out. These two happened respectively at his first and second meetings .

[neilwaynesmith]

Kaybee, It's the luck of the draw sometimes, a few years ago I went through about 60-odd meetings (about a years worth) in a row without a single incident, not even a pull off! yet my wife, who was doing a mixture of pits and incident at the time seemed to have cars thrown at her with reckless abandon. Didn't work though, obviously I didn't pay them enough to do the job properly

EvilPumpkin was right, it's not the years of marshalling that count, its the number of meetings. But as the above proves, even then you may not get the experience you want or need

[wickedwitch]

Regarding how much experience can be gained from single meetings, I think that it depends on who is with the Novice and how they are briefed (and maybe more importanly: DE-briefed).

I often tell myself that if a Novice (trainee) is put out with me and doesn't learn something new, that it is then I who is at fault. Even when my post has a "quiet" day, I make an effort to talk to the novice about incidents that we can see at other posts or about what we might do "IF" X incident were to happen.

I know that this doesn't equal practical experience of dealing with any particular incident, but I think that it can't be overlooked as observation and one-on-one discussion can add up to an awful lot of experience. And this experience could be more valuable to the Novice, than dealing with incidents incorrectly without being put straight. I mean, if you do something incorrectly (or even dangerously) and nobody bothers to correct you, then how could you possibly know that what you are doing needs to be changed, and how can you possibly be learning.

Maybe 5 events experience working with a helpful and knowledgeable marshal could pack more learning value that 15 events experience with a less helpful or less knowledgeable marshal.

Just a thought - I hope it makes sense.

[pinki]

Here's a thought, how about little badges like the brownies have !!!

Fire Extinguisher for putting out a fire.

Broom for sweeping up.

Football for clearing debris on a live track.

Jungle drums for using hand signals correctly.

Enough Silliness ..... sorry

[EvilPumpkin]

Um well let's be honest - it's kind of like that anyway......

I want one with a hanky on it for comforting drivers!

[Richard Sneader]

I do believe it is time to have a proper training and developement team that can watch the progress and advise chief marshals of the relevent clubs what there marshals are upto and what they need to train on and I also believe as well as the badges that we all get for grading we should issue a certificate and if marshals do other things then a similar scheme as well. The idea being each marshal builds up his/her own potfolio and so has proof.
I realise it would cost a bit to start with for folders and so on but in this day and age I think it is a step forward.
Also to all trainees, I know that the badge of white plastic is an eyesore, but you do not have to rush to get your green bandge. It does not make you a better marshal for it. All the time you have this badge people can see you are a trainee and so will teach you. Sometimes when you have your green people do forget unless they ask you how long you have had this for.
My idea for getting rid of the trainee plastic badge is to have the green/ white badge. Green on top and white underneath.
Thats all for know,
Rich S...

[Tony_J]

Rich, I think you are asking a lot from unpaid volunteers to take on the bureacratic work of completing addition paperwork. I also suspect that the jobs that chief marshals do is onerous enough already without having to chase observers etc for paperwork and resolving disputes between aggrieved marshals and those who have written unflattering comments. That assumes you get officials to be truly honest and objective in their written comments.

[Stephen Green]

I have to agree with you Tony. Uneccesary beaurocracy.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by rzsio396
Also to all trainees, I know that the badge of white plastic is an eyesore, but you do not have to rush to get your green bandge. It does not make you a better marshal for it. All the time you have this badge people can see you are a trainee and so will teach you. Sometimes when you have your green people do forget unless they ask you how long you have had this for.

As I believe WickedWitch has already said - we're all still learning - all the time. It shouldn't make any difference what colour your badge is - everyone should be willing to teach and learn.

If there are IOs/Obs/XOs out there who are not asking about the experience level of their crew when they get new people, then it's time for them to learn too. No matter where I go, what post I'm on or what position I'm currently covering - if I don't know the marshals, the first thing I'll try to find out is experience levels and I'll make sure they're aware of mine. It's simply common sense.