What do you Think

Richard Sneader · 10 Aug 2002, 15:02 (Ref:354632)

Hi All,
This afternoon I watched on ITV 1 the F3000 from Silverstone GP.
Not a bad race and all looked good. Then at Stowe there was an incident involving the Red Bull car and 1 other.
The cameras filcked on to the marshals doing a fine job except what stuck out like a dogs b****ck was the marshal providing fire cover without any gloves on!!.
A minor detail some of you might think however if there had been a fire and this persons hands got burnt then the incident worsens and more people are called out to help deal with it. And all because 1 person decides to play at his own rules.
I have noticed there seems to be a trend over the last couple of years of marshals on incident duties seem to not were gloves or even worse turn up to the incident then put them on wasting valuble time for the clear up. I do make a point on my post that all course/ incident marshals will wear them during when cars are out.
So to sum up If you do not wear your gloves( which is there for your safety) Then think how many people will be needed to deal with you and also that is 1 person down from the post and the cost involved.
All becase that 1 person did not play by the rules.
Rich S...

Stuart Hill · 10 Aug 2002, 21:59 (Ref:354913)

Three questions arise from your observations:

1) What grade was this marshal?
2) What sort of on-post briefing did he/she receive?

and lastly.................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3) Did the marshal in question get a signature for a "job-well-done" ?????????

would love to hear from anyone concerned

Richard Sneader · 11 Aug 2002, 06:28 (Ref:355064)

Hi Crazystu,
Obviously I can not answer your questions and as it was at the GP I do not know how many trainees were there. As an IO like myself this is one of the things you should look out for is safe working practices. Observers too although they will have enough to do.
At the end of the day Common sense prevails. Would you or anyone else tackle a fire from a race car without protection when stood at the side of the track??.
Rich S..

EvilPumpkin · 11 Aug 2002, 08:42 (Ref:355087)

Richard,

I'm sure we've all occasionally done silly things - this guy was just unfortunate enough to have his caught on TV. I doubt if you will find anyone on this board who is not aware of the importance of gloves in firefighting or indeed in marshalling in general, so you're really preaching to the choir here.

If you have a problem with a marshal or with marshalling standards, I would have thought the professional thing to do would be to write to the marshals club/chief marshal involved and express your concerns to them.

Rgds,

EP

**Stephen Green** · 12 Aug 2002, 12:07 (Ref:355977)

Crazystu, one small point. You don't get grading signatures at the GP as you can only volunteer for the grade you currently hold (or lower if you are an IO/Observer etc), you are only allowed to get an attendance signature.

Much as it was rather silly of the person concerned, there may have been a valid reason he wasn't wearing gloves at the time, who knows? We must remember that marshals are volunteers and that gloves etc are only recommended as safety wear. If we over react to situations such as these, then we are liable to put more people off marshalling rather than recruiting them.

Just my point of view on this one...

Stephen.

brickkicker · 12 Aug 2002, 13:02 (Ref:356072)

Its not that easy to pull a pin out of a fire bottle with gloves on so maybe they had took them of for this reason. And if the person was covering with a fire bottle arnt we told you shouldnt get close enough to a fire to get burnt. I personaly wear mine for the first few laps of a long race and hold them for the rest of the time, as we shouldnt run straight out we should look first in that time ive got them on and my hands arnt sweating for hours.
And as stephen pointed out they are not a requirment just just recommended

Richard Sneader · 12 Aug 2002, 17:51 (Ref:356229)

I was only making a valid point as this was a high media event and all press and tv were there. However if the unfortunate did happen and the car caught fire and hands got burnt. I am not sure on the insurance claim as there was not preventative mesures taken to stop hands being burnt, and would people still say its not easy to pull a pin out of a bottle. If your gloves are to bulky then change them to the mechanics or ringer type gloves or similar.
I do know it is a recommendation and we are all volunteers but that is why I hoaned this point. I do not want to see anyone on my team or any marshal get hurt espcially when they could avoid it.
Especially with instructing trainees it is good to get them into good safe habits to start with.
Rich..s

EvilPumpkin · 12 Aug 2002, 19:13 (Ref:356277)

I'm not saying it's not a valid point. I just think it's possible to make a valid point without having to point the finger at a specific marshal - I've never been an exponent of the "instruction by public vilifaction" school.

Stuart Hill · 12 Aug 2002, 20:10 (Ref:356307)

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the tone of some of these replies. (my opinion, no offence meant).
You only need remove ONE glove to pull a pin.....
this should then be replaced before charging or testing the bottle prior to use.
Gloves are only recommended? NOT on my post if I allocate someone as a Fire Marshal.
Put people off marshalling???? HOW??? by showing that we don't really care what they wear just as long as they turn up?
And finally... the "Professional" thing to do???? we are amateurs that like to think we do a professional job. The "Professional" thing to do was a correct briefing so that no-one went near/touched/pushed or attacked fire without gloves!!!!
This is why I ALWAYS have at least one spare pair of gauntlets, (not ringers etc as you can't throw them off), in my bag for trainees or novices.
If this is the choir that I'm preaching to, then, I would not like to be the conductor.

EvilPumpkin · 12 Aug 2002, 21:36 (Ref:356407)

Stu I think you misunderstood - I personally am not talking about gloves. I'm talking about picking one person out and making a public example of them rather than talking generally about the subject.

And I think that's what Stephen meant when he was talking about putting people off marshalling. After all, if you were thinking of marshalling and you knew your local circuit would get a lot of TV coverage, would you volunteer knowing that someone was going to make you into an object lesson for the slightest mistake (that's not to belittle the importance of gloves - just a general comment)

I happen to be with you on gloves and I also carry a couple of spare sets for the same reasons. Not to mention for my own sake in case the pair I'm wearing get too wet to be useful. Frankly, firefighting is usually the least of my worries - I don't think I've ever seen a fire outside of National Training Day - debris, hot exhausts, broken glass and other sundry bits and bobs I DO see a lot of though - and I wouldn't touch any of it without a decent pair of gloves on.

MY question is - if you were preaching to the choir and one poor little kid was singing off-key - would you take him to one side and work with him - or point at him and bawl him out in front of the whole congregation? Because that's the bit that *I* have a problem with.

theracegypsy · 12 Aug 2002, 22:56 (Ref:356497)

Quote:

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin

Frankly, firefighting is usually the least of my worries - I don't think I've ever seen a fire outside of National Training Day - debris, hot exhausts, broken glass and other sundry bits and bobs I DO see a lot of though - and I wouldn't touch any of it without a decent pair of gloves on.

MY question is - if you were preaching to the choir and one poor little kid was singing off-key - would you take him to one side and work with him - or point at him and bawl him out in front of the whole congregation? Because that's the bit that *I* have a problem with. [/B]

"bobs" EP? don't recall you picking me up recently, mind gloves avisable you don't know where I've been.

Your real point I am with you on, lets correct individually & quitely, not in public.
I'm still trying to talk to Derek Daly following his on air comments about my flagging at Vancouver.

brickkicker · 13 Aug 2002, 05:57 (Ref:356626)

mechanics gloves are not designed for fires they are to thin and you cant get them of quick enough so if they do get hot you will still burn. I wear thick gloves and could pick up a hot exaust if I had to could you do that with mechanics gloves?? (dont think so) if you are a fire marshal then you should not be that close to get burned anyway (thats what it says in the book)
Stu not sure on your grade but I dont think many marshals would be happy with you saying you must wear your gloves if there is a long race I will take mine of you should have loads of time to get them on as we should run straight out we are meant to asses first.
And on the point of getting burnt do you put badges on your probans?? many people do should they be forced to take them of as what is the point in having probans with flamable badges?

QuickBrownFox · 13 Aug 2002, 12:25 (Ref:356799)

Hi chaps.
Sorry to add fuel to the fire (no puns intended). Fancy a Catch 22 - I'll set the scene.
It's wet; in fact it's ****ing down.
2 cars collide in front of your post, one of them immediately catches light.
It's safe to proceed to fight the fire, which you do.
Question - do you stop to remove the highly flammable waterproofs you are wearing to keep dry?

Brushpusher · 13 Aug 2002, 17:21 (Ref:356967)

Quote:

Originally posted by QuickBrownFox
Hi chaps.
Question - do you stop to remove the highly flammable waterproofs you are wearing to keep dry?

That is a very valid point!

**Woolley** · 13 Aug 2002, 21:29 (Ref:357251)

At the risk of being contrary...

I don't think it mattes whether you're wearing gloves to give fire cover, or even actually putting out fires. I've had eight fires of various sizes, and even when crawling under the back of a car to get at the inside of the brake discs, I don't think I ever needed them. I do always wear mine, even for long races, because I don't want to be looking for them in an incident. I would never touch a car, handle a driver, or go near any fluids without them on. I also stronbly advise the welder's type, not driver's or mechanic's. I once had the misfortune to grab hold of the exhaust on an upside-down wreck of an F3 (I couldn't recognise any of it) and welders gloves are heat, not fire resistant, and I could throw them off quickly, thus saving myself from anything worse than a minor burn.

Richard Sneader · 14 Aug 2002, 10:41 (Ref:357570)

I thank you all for your responses to this thread. I was not setting out to make an example of anyone but to see what the different reactions are.
Rich...S

sss · 16 Aug 2002, 18:20 (Ref:359294)

and at the end of the day, you have to be a consenting adult to play the game, so why not let each individual do what he/she prefers, everyone has there own ideas how best they marshal so let them get on with it

flagwaver · 19 Aug 2002, 21:53 (Ref:361653)

there are valid points for wearing Welders gloves, Mechanics gloves,Drivers gloves latex gloves & even no gloves.It depends on what you are doing. What a good trainer will do is explain to a new marshal the pro's & con's of all sorts of hand protection & let them decide.