The Current State of IndyCar

[JacobP]

The racetrack has as lot of potential. They just shouldn't have been racing there in the middle of wet season.

[Paradise City]

There's an element of self harm and playing with fire with this series. Here is a swamp and that means rain - and lots of it.

The rainy season here is in April/May. When do we find Indycar here? Yep. You guessed it - April.

I'm filled with sympathy with a race weekend that gets a bad hand in terms of weather because that's sometimes what happens. But this is an incident of negligent self-harm - and with a new venue. What a complete disaster.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Like I predicted back in May 2014 on here, the NOLA race was doomed to be a dud. Didn't Brazil get canceled earlier this year as well?

The series has long been and continues to be in denial that at the core it is rotten and it's no longer an entertaining attraction to the general public. Especially with the randy bernard regime and beyond they continue to throw all these oddball goofball ideas out there like racing in the middle of a swamp at a track out in the middle of nowhere while completely refusing to look in the mirror at themselves. This isn't the case of a series like Nascar back in the 1990's and 2000's seeking out new markets because there was a demand for the product. This is a case of a series that abandoned their core market and audience and thinks there is still great demand out there for it and hence can run races in the most obscure locations possible or has to do so out of desperation.

Also as they circle the drain I think they need to give up the sanctioning fee model. This series tries to command stadium rock star fees when it is just a garage band playing local bars. Promoters can't make money with this series which is why it continues on a path of a rapidly tightening schedule.

I don't blame Roppin' Randy at all, he came in from a different 'sport' and shouldn't have been there in the first place and as a result was totally out of his depth. What does beggar belief, is why they chose him in the first place?

Anyway he's gone but despite his going, it seems to me that AOWR has forgotten what racing is all about. The series has relied on a spec car for far too long and now has a very short season because Mark Miles is afraid of the NFL. Instead of addressing the problem head on, IndyCar is using the same old Band-Aid to cover its self-inflicted wounds and that can't last forever. Maybe you're right, it is the regime because since reunification IndyCar has become very contracted.

Sanctioning fees are slowly killing F1, as Bernie slowly cuts off Europe in favour of countries with no motorsports heritage, at least IndyCar doesn't command the $25m that Bernie asks.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JacobP

The racetrack has as lot of potential. They just shouldn't have been racing there in the middle of wet season.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

There's an element of self harm and playing with fire with this series. Here is a swamp and that means rain - and lots of it.

The rainy season here is in April/May. When do we find Indycar here? Yep. You guessed it - April.

I'm filled with sympathy with a race weekend that gets a bad hand in terms of weather because that's sometimes what happens. But this is an incident of negligent self-harm - and with a new venue. What a complete disaster.

I don't know how much the actual track owners / race organizers had to do with the decision, but I think March has been darn pretty wet too there. I am no local, but I'd be willing to bet that in a week or two, it is bound to be down right miserable in the swamp for anything, let alone a motor race. Just pointing out that the March may have been just as wet and early May through October would be inhospitable for a big event. They chose cooler temps and rolled the dice on rain. It came up snake eyes.

Granted, they did build a track in the swamp, but there's also a city built in the swamp too. It's all gonna end up in the drink someday.

As for the track itself, I like the looks of it - park like, decent passing areas, but this weekend didn't help it's cause. Still beat anything that I've seen at Barber.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Like I predicted back in May 2014 on here, the NOLA race was doomed to be a dud. Didn't Brazil get canceled earlier this year as well?

The series has long been and continues to be in denial that at the core it is rotten and it's no longer an entertaining attraction to the general public. Especially with the randy bernard regime and beyond they continue to throw all these oddball goofball ideas out there like racing in the middle of a swamp at a track out in the middle of nowhere while completely refusing to look in the mirror at themselves. This isn't the case of a series like Nascar back in the 1990's and 2000's seeking out new markets because there was a demand for the product. This is a case of a series that abandoned their core market and audience and thinks there is still great demand out there for it and hence can run races in the most obscure locations possible or has to do so out of desperation.

Also as they circle the drain I think they need to give up the sanctioning fee model. This series tries to command stadium rock star fees when it is just a garage band playing local bars. Promoters can't make money with this series which is why it continues on a path of a rapidly tightening schedule.

if this is indeed the case, how does the seris fix it? Without sanctioning fees, how do they expect to make money? Renting tracks for such events will double your losses. The series does need to go where it is both wanted and can put on a good show, but after twenty years of losses, they can't exactly continue to throw away money if they cannot get a return.

[bjohnsonsmith]

An interesting article from Autosport's Mark Glendenning.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...807.1435108645

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

An interesting article from Autosport's Mark Glendenning.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...807.1435108645

Can't read the full story without subscription.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by BudLightJaguar

Can't read the full story without subscription.

Damn; an oversight on my part. I'll see if I can sum up the article.

[rwintle]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

There's an element of self harm and playing with fire with this series. Here is a swamp and that means rain - and lots of it.

The rainy season here is in April/May. When do we find Indycar here? Yep. You guessed it - April.

I'm filled with sympathy with a race weekend that gets a bad hand in terms of weather because that's sometimes what happens. But this is an incident of negligent self-harm - and with a new venue. What a complete disaster.

This reminds me of F1 putting the Malaysia race in monsoon season. I remember from the broadcast in... er... whichever year it rained and Button won the championship... a discussion between the commentators where they basically said that even the waiter at dinner asked why they were having a race when it was assuredly going to pour with rain.

[TheMightyM]

Gordon Kirby on the IndyCar schedule:

IndyCar has backed itself into this messy calendar without any plan or leadership, other than struggles for power which have resulted in the destruction of no fewer than 42 CART, Champ Car, IRL or IndyCar races over the past 15 years. This factoid captures Indy car racing's essential failure which is the complete absence of continuity or stability to the schedule and the consequent destruction of its fan and media base in numerous local markets.

The only IndyCar races currently enjoying established longterm dates are the Indy 500, Long Beach and Mid-Ohio. The rest of the meager schedule of sixteen races have been moved around, recently added to the calendar, or reinvented in some way with no sense of tradition, stability or date equity.

And of course, because the series has no bargaining power with either the tracks or television, IndyCar's schedule is crammed inside a five-month window between the end of March and Labor Day weekend. It's also a horror show for the teams, criss-crossing the country five or six times without any logical plan. A glance at each race paints a clear picture of IndyCar's intractable stable of problems.

And:

If IndyCar is to have any hope of reviving itself as a respected, well-attended, avidly-watched sport it must not only find a much better technical formula but also build much more stability and continuity into its schedule. And that's as tall an order as any of the many challenges facing the beleaguered folks on Sixteenth St. in Indianapolis.

You can read the rest of Kirby’s column here. And yes, I’d have to agree that schedule instability is a big part of IndyCar’s problems.

[HJJ]

Rahal's views on Indycar.

http://autoweek.com/article/indycar/...rld-interested

[NaBUru38]

Fontana 2015 had 512,000 viewers.

Milwaukee 2015 had 532,000 viewers.

Versus / NBCSN record is Edmonton 2011 with 642,000 viewers.

[TheMightyM]

Robin Miller writes that Milwaukee attendance was about like last year but wonders if that’s good enough to keep the race on the schedule.

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Fontana 2015 had 512,000 viewers.

Milwaukee 2015 had 532,000 viewers.

Versus / NBCSN record is Edmonton 2011 with 642,000 viewers.

So if TV viewership figures are so important for the business, why is there no race at Edmonton anymore?

Or is it a trend that a venue on its last legs boosts the TV viewership numbers because nobody wants to miss the last race? How were the figures for Houston last year?

I'd say it's rather likely that the controversy around Fontana 2015 sparked additional interest in Milwaukee by attracting the curious. And my, were they in for a treat with that race.

Here's looking forward to Iowa.

[DS"]

Continuing a conversation from this thread: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...28#post3566628

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Robin Miller suggested something like that a couple of months ago, to get the series to offer a longer calender. The problem is making the finances work for the teams independent of series money. Tracks would want to put up less, of course, given the size of crowds that IndyCar draws these days. So you’d need a big TV deal or someone willing to put up a lot of money to make it work.

Well, the teams for once would have to earn their own money instead of relying on handout from Indy. But as long as the teams come up with a viable business model, I don't see any problem with that.

(I'm not advocating this, as you could easily end up with another ugly split, which is the last thing AOWR needs.)

And what's the alternative? American Open-Wheel Racing is slowly dying ever since 1996. All the years the speedway has been trying to fix its problems but the biggest problem is the current system of IndyCar racing, in which the IMS stands in its center. The IMS can be a stakeholder in open-wheel racing, but it really shouldn't run the whole sport anymore. What works for NASCAR (And NASCAR's been controlled by Daytona since its very inception!) hasn't worked for IndyCar. What IndyCar needs is a system, where team owners get more of a say over the direction of the sport, but also more accountability for their actions, because most team owners haven't acted good in the last 20 years either.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by DS"

. The IMS can be a stakeholder in open-wheel racing, but it really shouldn't run the whole sport anymore. What works for NASCAR (And NASCAR's been controlled by Daytona since its very inception!) hasn't worked for IndyCar. What IndyCar needs is a system, where team owners get more of a say over the direction of the sport, but also more accountability for their actions, because most team owners haven't acted good in the last 20 years either.

Without Indianapolis Indy Car racing in the U.S. would cease to exist in less than two years.
Indianapolis is and always has been the only reason Indianapolis Car racing has existed since dirt tracks left the schedule.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Without Indianapolis Indy Car racing in the U.S. would cease to exist in less than two years.
Indianapolis is and always has been the only reason Indianapolis Car racing has existed since dirt tracks left the schedule.

CART/ChampCar held out for 11 years without Indianapolis and mainly went down due to their own incompetence, which may have been cause by panicking because the IRL didn't fall apart on its own. Had teams like Ganassi, Penske or Andretti-Green had more patience with CART, the IRL wouldn't have survived past 2002, as its business model was far from sustainable. For example, the IRL "encouraged" its new teams to take bank loans, in order to pay for their new toys. While this bought relatively huge grids in the period from 1998-1999, thode went down afterwards, presuambly because most teams couldn't repay their loans after all.

What I'm trying to say is: Indianapolis may be important to the sport, but it's definitely NOT the sport itself. That's like saying Tennis would die without Wimbledon. Sure, Wimbledon is the most important tennis tournament on the world, but even without it, there are still the US Open, French Open and the Australian Open.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by DS"

CART/ChampCar held out for 11 years without Indianapolis and mainly went down due to their own incompetence, which may have been cause by panicking because the IRL didn't fall apart on its own. Had teams like Ganassi, Penske or Andretti-Green had more patience with CART, the IRL wouldn't have survived past 2002, as its business model was far from sustainable. For example, the IRL "encouraged" its new teams to take bank loans, in order to pay for their new toys. While this bought relatively huge grids in the period from 1998-1999, thode went down afterwards, presuambly because most teams couldn't repay their loans after all.

What I'm trying to say is: Indianapolis may be important to the sport, but it's definitely NOT the sport itself. That's like saying Tennis would die without Wimbledon. Sure, Wimbledon is the most important tennis tournament on the world, but even without it, there are still the US Open, French Open and the Australian Open.

Ganassi, Penske, Andretti went back to Indy because Indy was the only thing they truly cared about.
CART went down hill because it only existed because of what USAC inherited from the AAA and then CART inherited from USAC.
Even USAC only had glory once they created the Triple Crown; when that died Indy car racing started downhill before the creation of the IRL.

Had there been no Indianapolis for some reason what CART inherited from USAC would have fallen apart in a few years.
CART had nothing, the IRL despite its incompetent leader had Indy and that is all that matters in the U.S.

The SCCA had the Formula A/5000 series with top name drivers.
It lasted less than ten years.
Open wheel road racing is a losing proposition in the U.S. beyond sprint cars, and even paved oval sprint cars are seeing big problems.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Ganassi, Penske, Andretti went back to Indy because Indy was the only thing they truly cared about.
CART went down hill because it only existed because of what USAC inherited from the AAA and then CART inherited from USAC.
Even USAC only had glory once they created the Triple Crown; when that died Indy car racing started downhill before the creation of the IRL.

Had there been no Indianapolis for some reason what CART inherited from USAC would have fallen apart in a few years.
CART had nothing, the IRL despite its incompetent leader had Indy and that is all that matters in the U.S.

The SCCA had the Formula A/5000 series with top name drivers.
It lasted less than ten years.
Open wheel road racing is a losing proposition in the U.S. beyond sprint cars, and even paved oval sprint cars are seeing big problems.

From what I rember at the time and what I've read, Andretti Green Racing, Ganassi and Penske primarily left due to cost, with Penske the first to leave in 2001. CART had become very expensive and even if a team had a big sponsor behind them as both Ganassi and Penske did, team sponsors are going to be a lot happier if they can spend less money. The same with engine manufacturers, which is one reason Honda and Toyota jumped ship. The problem though with going to the IRL, was as a series it had never attracted the big sponsors like CART did. When FedEx left CART, they didn't go to the IRL they went to NASCAR.

I think the key factor in CART's decline was the fiasco over the Firehawk 600, something CART never recovered from. The terms weren't disclosed but it was estimated they were between $5–$7m and the contract for 2002 and 2003 was cancelled. I also believe this played a major part in teams, as well as FedEx leaving, as they sought to disassociate themselves from CART.

By the time the AAA quit as the sanctioning body and USAC took over, AOWR took place on a mixture of dirt and paved ovals, except for Pike's Peak. It was under USAC that AOWR expanded to road courses, with the first road race at Mosport, if iirc. CART may have 'inherited' the basic infrastructure from USAC but CART had to virtually start from scratch and initially had to compete directly with USAC. The Indy 500 remained a USAC sanctioned race during the CART era. It was under CART AOWR expanded to include street racing.

[Bob Riebe]

CART simply inherited USAC courses, they did not start from scratch.
The first year, they had to have the SCCA co-sanction the races to be listed on the international calender.

USAC had gone back to the road races they had abandoned, because the tracks found them financially a loser, before CART ever existed.
USAC went overseas before CART existed.

Their rules were strictly taken straight from USAC.
Dan Gurney was the first one to suffer from them changing from USAC rules and despite him being one of the founders of CART, CART refused to give him the increase in stock-block displacement he pushed hard for.
After which the chassis form of the Eagle that had won with a stock-block was banned.
It was not long after that, that there were no more Eagles.

Penske said very plainly that he intended to return to Indy.
Switching sanctions did nothing to save anyone any money.
It costs money to buy new cars and engines without exception.
Perhaps the CART continually changing rules had influence where to spend money, but it was not about saving money.

It was written in Autoweek, way back then, that Penske's sponsors had told him they wanted to race at Indianapolis, not races that most people never heard of.

The first USAC road race was July 25, 1965 at Indianapolis Raceway Park.
They did not go to Mosport till 1967.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

CART simply inherited USAC courses, they did not start from scratch.
The first year, they had to have the SCCA co-sanction the races to be listed on the international calender.

USAC had gone back to the road races they had abandoned, because the tracks found them financially a loser, before CART ever existed.
USAC went overseas before CART existed.

Their rules were strictly taken straight from USAC.
Dan Gurney was the first one to suffer from them changing from USAC rules and despite him being one of the founders of CART, CART refused to give him the increase in stock-block displacement he pushed hard for.
After which the chassis form of the Eagle that had won with a stock-block was banned.
It was not long after that, that there were no more Eagles.

Penske said very plainly that he intended to return to Indy.
Switching sanctions did nothing to save anyone any money.
It costs money to buy new cars and engines without exception.
Perhaps the CART continually changing rules had influence where to spend money, but it was not about saving money.

It was written in Autoweek, way back then, that Penske's sponsors had told him they wanted to race at Indianapolis, not races that most people never heard of.

The first USAC road race was July 25, 1965 at Indianapolis Raceway Park.
They did not go to Mosport till 1967.

Obviously CART needed sanctioning from the SCCA but I didn't say CART started from scratch, I said they virtually started from scratch as the series was not without its problems. A number of their early races were double headers and some tracks hosted more than one event in a season, as the series established itself. It's not until the mid '80s that a CART season as we knew it, with its mix of oval, road and street races really starts to take shape.

True, USAC did go abroad to Monza in 1957 and '58 but they were non championship races.

I got that wrong about Mosport being the first USAC road race, it was the Hoosier Grand Prix, and was held at Indianapolis Raceway Park in 1965 and won by rookie diver Mario Andretti no less. However the rest of the races were held on either dirt or paved ovals, like the AAA era. It wasn't until 1971 that dirt ovals ceased to be part of the USAC series.

Regarding Eagle and their results during the CART era, it looks like the whole package wasn't particularly competative. They did much better in '85 but then they had switched to a Lola with a Cosworth DFX.

Of course switching series saved money. One of the main reasons that has always been cited for Tony George's decision to form the IRL was because he wanted a cheaper and more affordable form of racing and in 1997 he laid down the car specifications for the IRL.

I found this webpage,

http://indymotorspeedway.com/v1/98vstech.htm#eng,

with several price comparisons for 1998, arguably when CART was at it's peak. The price of one NA IRL engine was $80k and one CART turbo engine could be leased at $150k. The IRL's engine program, was due to Tony George dislike for CART's lease arrangement, which he thought puts teams at a disadvantage with the engine manufacturers. Another cost difference was gearboxes, with the IRL Emco Six-speed costing $30k and the CART Reynard gearbox costing $130k. Also there was a big difference in chassis price. A Riley & Scott chassis cost $280k and a Reynard 98i was $430k. Looking at those price differences, I think it had a lot to do with saving money.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Ganassi, Penske, Andretti went back to Indy because Indy was the only thing they truly cared about.

Which may be true, but they could/should have waited one or two more years to do so. By then, TG's treehouse club would have fallen apart on its own, because most of his playbuddies would have run out of money.

CART had nothing, the IRL despite its incompetent leader had Indy and that is all that matters in the U.S.

CART had:

• most major open-wheel racing races bar the Indy 500
• indirect ownership of major tracks (via Roger Penske until he sold his tracks to ISC)
• major sponsorship
• top-class TV deals
• well-attended events
• support from major automobile manufacturers
• some of the most well-known racing drivers on the world
• an international TV audience

The IRL had:

• The Indy 500

Far from nothing, what CART had going into 1996.

Open wheel road racing is a losing proposition in the U.S. beyond sprint cars, and even paved oval sprint cars are seeing big problems.

Sad but true. Many forms of racing had their ups and downs over the years and yet I can't recall such a long depression like the one IndyCar racing had. I guess it's really down to it being the world's worst managed sport.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Of course switching series saved money. One of the main reasons that has always been cited for Tony George's decision to form the IRL was because he wanted a cheaper and more affordable form of racing and in 1997 he laid down the car specifications for the IRL.

But what some people fail to see was that CART made a ton more money than the IRL. I mean, it's well documented that the Speedway had to subside plenty of IRL teams and I already mentioned IRL teams having to take bank loans to fund their new cars.

[10TENTHS]

So much money that team owners used an IPO to raise $$$, and it went bankrupt a few short years later...

As for road courses, the turn 4 viewing area alone at Mid-Ohio was packed:

[DS"]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

So much money that team owners used an IPO to raise $$$, and it went bankrupt a few short years later...

As I've implied, in their panic over the IRL, CART's done some stupid things that ultimately ended up ruining everything. However, CART's business, as it was at the beginning of the open-wheel racing split, was working well.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by DS"

Which may be true, but they could/should have waited one or two more years to do so. By then, TG's treehouse club would have fallen apart on its own, because most of his playbuddies would have run out of money.



CART had:

• most major open-wheel racing races bar the Indy 500
• indirect ownership of major tracks (via Roger Penske until he sold his tracks to ISC)
• major sponsorship
• top-class TV deals
• well-attended events
• support from major automobile manufacturers
• some of the most well-known racing drivers on the world
• an international TV audience

The IRL had:

• The Indy 500

Far from nothing, what CART had going into 1996.

Sad but true. Many forms of racing had their ups and downs over the years and yet I can't recall such a long depression like the one IndyCar racing had. I guess it's really down to it being the world's worst managed sport.

But what some people fail to see was that CART made a ton more money than the IRL. I mean, it's well documented that the Speedway had to subside plenty of IRL teams and I already mentioned IRL teams having to take bank loans to fund their new cars.

CART very well may have made a lot of money but they were eventually declared bankrupt.