Message to the organisers of...

[Woolley]

We all get fed up of various daft ideas or abuse of our goodwill by organisers who spoil what would have been a perfect week-end. How about posting them here in the hope that they are reading the forum and might learn something useful?

Opening gripe.
Who at the BRSCC or Donington, decided we'd be happy to have a 2:45 lunch on Sat 27th, (but keep 'at least one marshal on post' to cover public track sessions), and then keep us there until 7:00. I'd much rather have got home in time to have a Saturday evening and not get grief for another late finish (She was quite understanding fortunately, but why should she have to be?) I do this for the sport - if you want me to do public sessions, you can pay me - I do have a life outside of marshalling. Everyone who agrees with me, please write to the BRSCC as I shall be doing.

[PaulPerkins]

Hi Wooley,

I have to agree that I was a little miffed, but I had been kind of expecting it from Chris' post. This could have so easily have been avoided by sending a timetable with the tickets (as is usual with every other meeting I've marshalled at) and a note explaining the situation.

I was also a little cheesed off that we didn't get our programmes until after lunch (presumably they were selling them to the punters at two quid a pop from the time they walked through the gates). My observer was having a great time writing up reports: "Now chaps, just what sort of Minis are these?" was oft heard from the obs box...

It was also nice to have no course car to indicate that the circuit is no longer live... I quite enjoyed playing Mini-dodging

In terms of being paid for the track sessions? I'd probably disagree with you on that. They were not proper track sessions. Agreed, there were a couple of idiots (like the Cosworth I mentioned in another thread), but on the whole it was great to see so many owners of ordinary Minis having a great time without pushing it too hard. (I know: to a Mini owner, his or her car is never ordinary, but you know what I mean )

Other than that, I think the event was crackingly managed. All races flowed on from each other, and the huge grids were aligned quickly (with a couple of exceptions). And the commentary was top-notch.

As I said before, I think you can curry favour with people if you let them know what's expected from them well in advance. It takes no effort at all to pop a couple of extra sheets into the marshals' envelopes. These would, after all, be the same as the ones that were sent out to competitors.

Just my two sub-currency's worth.

[Tony_J]

I respect the views of both correspondents in this thread. It does however indicate to me that each of us differs on what we are prepared to put up with from organisers. The consequence of these differing views is that marshalling organisations will never get a consensus to present to clubs and circuits as they know that at the end of the day marshals will always turn up even if they gripe in private. I chose to stop marshalling at Donongton because of the regular late finishes and long trek home that effectively spoilt what had gone before.

[Richard Sneader]

On the 17/18th August at Brands we have this Uniroyal VW endurance race. Does anyone know how many cars are turning up and what the race distance is.Also what have the previous races been like.
Rich S...

[Woolley]

I think the three of us have hit pretty much of a consensus, despite differing end results. If I've summed it up properly, this is the message:

1) We don't like to finish late. If I'd known what was happening, I'd probably have sent my apologies, thus reducing the already woeful numbers. Tony has applied this full time, and I quite agree - I reduced the number of days at Donington, but keep hoping they've got the message. It seems it needs no-one to turn up before anyone acts.

2) The racing was superb both days (well, except T-Cars, but we don't expect miracles).

3) I believe the punters were being charged £20 a session. Since they continued without us after 7pm, they could have all been done then, offering us some recompense for staying late if we were needed. If we weren't needed, why did we have to stay on post? I understand that for normal track sessions, the few marshals required are paid (I'm prepared to be proved wrong on that).

4) The lack of course car, no provision of cold drinks on a long very hot week-end, abuse of our goodwill at lunchtime all suggest that the organisers don't consider us at all. Other threads have referred to respect, etc, but a bit of thought would be a good start.

I was on post with a young lad, who showed interest and promise on only his fourth meeting. By the end of the day he was tired, bored, and reliant on his dad to pick him up and return him to Shepshed, by which time Saturday night would be ruined for both of them. Do we think he's likely to come back for a fifth meeting? And if the answer is no, why do you think the numbers are falling away?

[PaulPerkins]

Woolley,

As I've said before, all of the above points you make could be addressed by setting out the timetable ahead of time.

But I feel I should say something about the rest of your message:

1) I don't mind finishing late at all. Provided that I know about it ahead of time. That's was my point.

2) Agree. (I actually thought the T Cars were good, but hey ho)

3) I'm guessing the reason we were needed on-post during the luchtime period was because there were also high-speed passenger rides taking place. If one of those had gone wrong then there would have been *serious* trouble. I would imagine that offering such rides is based upon the fact that the passengers expect (quite rightly) that there will be sufficient trained staff on hand should things go wrong. However, I doubt that this is the case for track session folks, who no doubt had to sign away their lives to get on-circuit.

4) Course car, OK a gripe of mine, but this is no biggie. Provided you've got an observer keeping his or her eye open (and a loud whistle in their gob) then there's no problem. Provision of drinks, not sure I follow you on that one. There is no agreement anywhere that says that the circuit have to provide drinks. Otherwise, should they also provide suncream, and then boots, and probans? Where does it stop? My opinion is that we (marshals) attend sessions knowing full-well that we'll have to bring sufficient supplies to feed and water ourselves. That's why I bring a sit-on fishing-box full of stuff to each and every meeting. I might look like a wally, but I know that I can survive a meeting with sun, rain and plagues of locusts (OK, that's going too far), but you get my drift?

I'm sorry if all of the above sounds like I'm backtracking on myself or disagreeing with you outright, but I don't think I am. I just don't have the opinion that we should be treated in some special way. We do it because we love the sport, and we do it knowing that there will be days that are hard - sometimes bl@@dy hard. And some meetings won't provide us with the thrill of a lifetime.

As for attracting new blood - I wish I knew what the solution was.

The first meeting I went to, I was walked around a cold, wet circuit for 4 hours. By the end of the morning, I was cold and tired and wonderered what I'd let myself in for. And then I got to go out on-post for the afternoon. That's when it all clicked into place and I realised why I'd done it.

I think I've rambled enought, but in summary, I'll go back to Donington.

[brickkicker]

I have to agree with wolley on this one we need to keep what little we have and build on it. I see hes local to me so i know what its like trying to get back after a long day. Having been to rockingham for the first time this year only a couple of weeks ago I think ill be there a bit more next year as the facilitys are top notch (in the outer paddock) there are time restraints.
But all said the racing was good and we did finish quite early. I also thought the T cars were quite good with wilson doing well to come from the back of the grid
As for the high speed rides being provided great and there should be an number of trained marshals there but we are there to look after drivers for races not for them to make a few quid on a side line they could have at least got some drinks round to us.
Agin with the point of letting us know about finishing times, they now that if they did this they would have no one turn up. Why do you think the programs were so late turning up, maybe so no one sarted to complain while at sign on???

[icklimp]

I also have to agree with chris, having had one late session at donnington with the vscc i was very grateful we did not have to travel back to lincolnshire (we stayed overnight), and even more glad i was staying with relatives that week and didn't have to go back to newcastle.

While i travel to many events because i love the sport i do expect the organisers to take the time to consider us. I don't expect free equipment and i take plenty of provisions so i am prepared, but i was very grateful at the JCC meeting this weekend when a DRIVER paid for a water run for the marshals. He should not have had to do that, hot weather is something that can be provided for and the club should be able to do this. I do believe if the driver had not stumped up the cash the JCC would have done something.

Paul, just because we expect marshalling to be a thankless task doesn't mean organisers can count on walking all over us. A timetable before hand would have been appreciated (and is the norm with every club i work with) , a drinks run (not necessarily cold drinks, i don't expect the earth) would have been a nice gesture. Even with passenger rides the organisers should have allowed at least a half an hour lunch break to allow all marshals to fully stand down. People as a rule don't mind not having a lunch break if there have been a number of incidents but to not have one scheduled until mid afternoon and to still require one body on post is a little ridiculous.

There are many different views on this but a general feeling among the marshals i know who work for different venues and different clubs is that more thought and consideration is required by organising clubs and their drivers. We had two long hard hot days at cadwell, two things made it worthwhile, the water run both days and the driver(s) who stopped at every post to thank the marshals. Neither of these things cost thousands (even hundreds) or much time, but they made the day for many marshals.

[PaulPerkins]

Hi All,

I've just re-read the entire thread, and I think that Tony_J has put it most succinctly: we all have different expectations.

My feeling is that I expect nothing, so I'm never dissappointed (is that a telling statement about me? ). Others feel that the organisers should show more consideration (and I'd agree with that, but don't expect it).

In summary, small things such as pre-planning and a token of thanks go a long way to making our time more enjoyable. These things also keep us going back, and help encourage new members.

Woolley (and others, of course), if you've written to the BRSCC, please do post the responses you get. It will be enlightening to hear their view on the situation, and to see if they are aware that there is a problem.

This has been a cracking debate so far! Keep it coming!

[icklimp]

Thats a good summary paul, i don't expect organisers to treat us better but it would be nice if they did. And just beause i don't expect good treatment doesn't mean i won't try to do something about it.

I don't think differing opinions means we can't reach a consensus, some people will want more and more from organisers but i think every marshal would be happy with a few ground rules for organising clubs, like a timetable of events and a luch break where possible, not when it can fitted in around public track sessions.

[flaggie1]

We have to cop the same sessions Down Under. But they call them "MEDIA RIDES" usually the media are trackside reporting on some wally from upper kumbuckter west who won a ride. They usually run these during our lunch times at 12:30. We had a situation on the weekend at Sandown for a club meet. they had a course car but still persisted on running a "HOT" Track. No opportunity to get out and pick up stuff of the track. Drink runs happened 1 hour before and after lunch. But they did keep us informed on what was going on and when we fell behind we still managed to get away on time. The opinion on the thread at the moment is for better treatment. I would say a bit more consultation on stuff that will effect our weekends. Like Improvements to points and special rules relevant to the weekend.

[neilwaynesmith]

One of the problems with our club system is that the clubs have to tender for the right to run the races, therefore the only way they can maximise any profit is to cram as much into the day as possible.

I was down to do both days at Donington, but had to cancel on medical grounds (by the time I had run to an incident, my blood pressure would have been sufficient for me to douse any fire merely by cutting my finger and pointing!!). I sat out both days wondering how they were doing, as the programme looked brilliant, but having heard the comments, perhaps I was fortunate to miss them?

[Flagman]

If you think that timetable was bad - have a look at the provisional timetable for the 'Thunder in the Park' meeting

[brickkicker]

FLAGMAN can you tell me were I can get a copy. I will be there from the thurday night, were you there this weekend I forgot all about finding you where you on the grass or the gravel part. Did you see me? there was probably to many bloody competiters in there for you to see us

[Woolley]

I think there are some serious issues to be discussed here, and unfortunately I don’t think I started the thread in quite the way I had intended. My thanks for those who’ve supported my comments, but particularly, my thanks to Paul for showing me that I need to present my case a little more clearly. That he hasn’t quite got my point is entirely down to the fact that it was badly expressed in the first place. Paul – I do agree with what you’re saying, even though it may not sound like it - I’m afraid my initial contribution was more of a moan than I intended!
My apologies then for a rather long-winded post here, but please bear with me while I try to get this on to the track I intended.

I’m not asking to be treated as special, only human with basic needs. I do this because I love the sport, I love my involvement in it and I don’t want unnecessary problems spoiling it. I accept that late finishes can be unavoidable – after all, I happily did the GT race at Silverstone! Sometimes something happens that delays things, sometimes the programme is of such depth and quality that it’s worth it. Sometimes it’s a result of money grabbing by someone who figures we’ll just stay there because we must be nuts to do it, and I am sure this was the case with the track sessions. The ever decreasing numbers suggests that people are not so willing to be put upon. Tony’s comment of ‘I don’t do Donington because of late finishes’ is a very common viewpoint, and one I sympathise with. If some circuits can run to a curfew, why can’t all? Rockingham can complete a GT/F3 meeting by 5:00, Donington takes until 7:00. Why? Late finishes are a major issue. It means that I am rarely able to attend a weeding party, birthday party, concert or a hundred other events that normal people go to. This rightly annoys my wife who is very understanding of my need to get drenched/burnt and put at risk for no return, but would like a life as well, and doesn’t wish to keep going to these events on her own, or miss out. I’m sure some of my friends think I am divorced, because they only ever see one of us! The consequence of this, of course, is that I am increasingly going elsewhere or not at all, and as the numbers continue to decline, the day becomes harder work for those that do go. This makes incidents harder and more dangerous to deal with, it slows down the meeting, the timetable runs behind and a finish that was planned for 7:00 starts drifting towards 7:30, so even fewer people come next time.

The water comment was slightly throwaway, but again underlines a serious point. Like Paul, I take sufficient equipment with me to be stranded on the Peak District for several days. A large bag and separate pile of waterproof and warm clothing is with me at all times. I can’t however, manage a fridge, and with water weighing in at 1 litre=1kg, there’s a limit to what I can move without a trolley, which wouldn’t get through the gravel trap anyway. On Saturday I had 1½ litres of coffee, two bottles of coke, a lemonade from sign on and a bottle of orange cordial which had been frozen overnight. Not only were all finished by 4:30, but the frozen bottle was warm despite having been kept in the shade. It would have been a major source of goodwill for someone to think ‘let’s send some cold water round, it must be getting hot in those overalls and gloves’. It needn’t cost anything at all – I know some circuits have very basic facilities, but they all have a tap and access to some bottles. Silverstone used to do it often (do they still under Octagon?), Shelsley have managed on occasions and it’s important for health and safety. Dehydration=Tiredness=Can Kill.

The campsites for the Grand Prix, the DTM at Donington, Goodwood and in general have been much criticised, and with good reason. I like a little comfort in my life. If I choose a place for a holiday or a week-end away, I look for facilities, not just cost. Just because I am prepared to stand at the side of a circuit doesn’t mean I am prepared to put up with insufficient and unheated showers, unsanitary toilets, a field covered in animal waste and a butcher who breaches regulations. More to the point, if I am going to stay away, I want to be accompanied by my wife. She’s not very interested in motor sport, and uses the occasion for a bit of relaxation, sitting by the caravan with a book and a bottle of wine. She’s not going to appreciate it if the site is a disgrace, so she won’t come. If she won’t, I won’t. Perhaps when setting out a campsite, the organisers should not be thinking ‘this is good enough for the marshals’, but ‘would my wife be prepared to stay here for the week-end?’ If the answer is no, do something about it.

To summarise (at last I hear you say!) I’m interested in communicating to the organisers the points that they should be thinking about. I don’t need to be loved. I don’t subscribe to the view that ‘they couldn’t do it without us’ – they could, but less safely, and we certainly couldn’t do it without them (We’d look silly standing around the track with no cars coming). I enjoy the sport. I take pride when David Addison gives us warm thanks at the end of the day. He sounds like he means it, and I’m sure he does. I take great satisfaction from a job well done, the fact that I may have helped save a life, reduce an injury or limit the dent in someone’s wallet by my actions. I appreciate the courtesy, thanks and friendliness of most of the drivers (and if you want to see that at its best, go to a hill climb, when practically all of them wave and shout thank you after their last run). I don’t want paying for my attendance, but if the venture is a purely commercial one with profit the only target, then the organisers should be honest about it and factor a reasonable wage into their calculations, not sucker us into it because we’re already there for something else. In short, I want to believe that someone will take the time to think about us and consider our welfare. Perhaps then we can keep some people in the sport, or even bring some back. The Post Office used to quote the statistic that it is five times more expensive to recruit a new customer than to keep an existing one. Trying to encourage new Marshals is a laudable aim, but what is the point if they don’t stay? It is more important to take action to encourage existing marshals to continue. I’m convinced a little thoughtfulness is all it would take.

Paul – I’m back at Donington 9/10/11th August. Stop by for a chat if you’re there. It doesn’t look like I’m going to be able to get home before I’m due to set out again…

[Andrew Kitson]

Interesting to read your comments as an outsider. I often stand amongst your ranks taking reference photos for my paintings. Octagon and the other circuits are always helpful with providing the correct media passes / wristbands. I really appreciate what you guys do and the fact that late finishes etc. can ruin any social life. I get grief and I often leave before the end of the meeting!
I heard lots of moans from some marshals at the BARC Snett Toca meet at the weekend - mainly from the Snett regulars who attend each and every meeting including mid week tests and track days - some were relegated to very minor duties as it was a big meeting. One told me he felt like a stranger in his own circuit and wonders if he should be so committed in future.
A difficult one and hope all sides can be kept happy to ensure the sport we love is not threatened by lack of marshals.

[brickkicker]

WOOLLEY- Well said I have read it (and managed not to fall asleep) and think that most of what you say is spot on. The only thing I think is they could'nt do without us, I aint going to use this as a threat to organisisers as that wont get us anywere.
And if you up at donington on 9/10/11th come over and say hello (bring a few beers if its anything like the DTM there should be more than a few going round). And if your going up on the thursday night I'll probably pass you on the monorway (ill be the blue blurrrrr).
PAUL- am you camping over the weekend?

[Woolley]

Friday 9th August
EVENT START LENGTH CATEGORY

Prac 09:00 20 mins Superkart Div 2
Prac 09:30 20 mins Superkart Div 1
Prac 10:00 1 hour Euro F3000
Demo 11:10 15 mins Minardi F1x2 - installation laps
Prac 11:35 30 mins Formula Palmer Audi
Demo 12:15 1 hour Minardi F1x2 - passenger rides
Prac 13:40 30 mins Superkart Div 2
Prac 14:20 30 mins Superkart Div 1
Prac 15:00 1 hour Euro F3000
Prac 16:15 30 mins Formula Palmer Audi
Prac 17:00 1h30m Minardi F1x2 - passenger rides & F1 Pit Stops

Saturday 10th August
EVENT START LENGTH CATEGORY
Qual 09:00 25 mins Superkart Div 2
Qual 09:30 25 mins Superkart Div 1
Qual 10:00 30 mins Euro F3000
Demo 10:40 15 mins Minardi F1x2 - installation laps
Qual 11:00 20 mins Formula Palmer Audi
Qual 11:30 20 mins Formula Renault
Qual 12:00 25 mins Superkart Div 2
Qual 12:35 25 mins Superkart Div 1
Demo 13:15 1 hour Minardi F1x2 passenger rides & F1 Pit Stops
Qual 14:30 45 mins Euro F3000
Qual 15:25 20 mins Formula Palmer Audi
Demo 15:55 1 hour Minardi F1x2 - passenger rides
Qual 17:00 20 mins Formula Saloons
Race 17:30 13 laps CIK-FIA European Superkarts Div 2 - Singles
Race 18:00 13 laps CIK-FIA European Superkarts Div 1 - Twins
Race 18:30 10 laps BARC Formula Renault Championship

Sunday 11th August
EVENT START LENGTH CATEGORY
Warm 09:00 10 mins Superkart Div 2 warm-up
Warm 09:15 10 mins Superkart Div 1 warm-up
Qual 09:35 15 mins BMW
Warm 10:00 15 mins Euro F3000
Race 10:25 15 laps Minardi F1x2 - installation laps
Race 11:00 14 laps Formula Palmer Audi Championship
Race 11:40 13 laps CIK-FIA European Superkarts Div 2 - Singles
Race 12:20 13 laps CIK-FIA European Superkarts Div 1- Twins
Demo 13:00 1 hour Minardi F1x2 - passenger rides
Race 15:00 38 laps Euro F3000 Championship
Demo 16:00 1 hour Minardi F1x2 - Demonstration
Race 17:10 14 laps Formula Palmer Audi Championship
Race 17:50 10 laps Formula Saloon Championsjip
Race 18:30 10 laps Kumho BMW CHampionship

Provisional timetable subject to change.

By my reckoning, that's three consequetive 10 hour days, plus one hours driving each way, sign on at least an hour before start, lucky if we can get out through the crowds on Sunday in less than half an hour. Special award to anyone who can spot a lunch break!

[PaulPerkins]

Woolley,

Good points well made. Appreciate what you've said, and have to say that I'm now nodding along with you.

It's an interesting point that you make about campsites. This seems to have gained a lot of airtime recently (presumably since the British GP). I think what you're saying is right - the thought has to be 'would I bring my other half here'. That's a metric that I use for a lot of what I do (failed me in Anglesey recently, but that's another story ). I've a feeling that the organisers are thinking 'Well, we've done our bit [i.e. provided a bit of land]. If they don't like it then there's nothing stopping them going to the Travellodge'.

My feeling is (and you've also deduced), whilst the sport is a commercial venture, not a lot will change. It quite literally comes down to the 'bottom line'. They can spend 10 grand doing up the showers for the marshals, or they can pay this out in dividends to the shareholders OR spend 10 grand doing up hospitality. I know which one will take priority. And the sport is not going to stop being a commercial venture.

It really is a sad state of affairs, and as I've said before I really don't know what the solution is. I think that voting with your feet is the only way. High profile pressure -- press, numerous letters, petition (now there's a thought) -- is another way, but this has to be extremely well managed otherwise there is grave danger of the whole thing sounding like sour grapes.

As I said above, I'm on your side, Woolley: keep up the good work - we need something done.

Paul.

----

BTW, I'd love to meet up with you boys, but I've only got the F3/GT meeting at Oulton on the 17/18 of August in my schedule for this season before I disappear off the planet for three months. Between then and now I've got family visits and a house move to deal with. Wish me luck

[Tony_J]

I agree with all of Woolleys comments and views. I have been marshalling for about 20 years. Most of the comments and criticisms have been going on for at least that long I suspect. One of the differences now is peoples expectations have changed. As standards have improved elsewhere we expect them to improve circuit wise. The majority of improvements relate to competitor safety and not marshal safety. There are powerful voices within the sport which make things happen, sadly marshals are not among them. At the end of the day we have a couple of options, put up with it, walk away, get elected to a club etc and be prepared to shout very loud and long and be prepared to take the resultant flack The profitability of circuits is another issue. I suspect that most make more money from corporate days etc than they do from motor racing events. I would be surprised if the GP even makes much of a profit after the regular 'improvements' required by the FIA. Perhaps also we have too much racing. For such a small group of islands we have a very large number of race circuits, and a lot of racing every weekend. What about the number of competing formula? It seems old one make series never die they just become club races. At long last the MSA seems to have recognised that continuing to licence new series is not a licence to print money.

[Flagman]

Woolley - Thanks for posting the timetable - I was intending to do it myself but didn't have the time yesterday.

I estimate that the meeting will run up to an hour late on each day as it is impossible to clear the GP circuit between sessions in the 5-10 min gaps that they have allowed. I recall that the BRSCC where taking approx 30 minutes to run and clear a 10 lap race on the national circuit last weekend so I very much doubt that the BARC can do the same in 40 mins for 13-15 lap races on the GP circuit!

I have emailed BARC HQ to ask them to confirm the timetable and comment on the lack of scheduled breaks - will post the replay (if any).

I (and Mrs Flagman) have complained about this type of timetableing before and been told by the BARC that it is the circuit and not the club that schedules the meeting!

I think the only way to combat this abuse of our services is to vote with out feet and stay away. Eventually they will get the message - but I guess it will take one of two things to change the situation.

a) - A MSA or FIA steward with the balls to refuse to allow a major promoted meeting to take place as a result of lack of marshals.

b) - A fatality at such a meeting and a coroner who concludes that the meeting was undermanned and that this materially contributed to the fatality - then the **** will really hit the fan....

[brickkicker]

Nice to see BARC blame the circuit, as I am sure it is there fault as the circuit are only interested in leasing it out for the few days and there money. BARC want to fit as much racing and pis**ng about as possible in so that they can line there pockets.

[The Sweeper]

Thanks for the timetable for "Thunder" Wolley.
I'll try and get down for that one, reminds me must ring somebody about that weekend.
For what it's worth I've just E.mailed Donington complaining about the Competitor invasion on our campsite last weekend.

[brickkicker]

SWEEPER- am you taking that big tent again or you going to use the small 'un. Will you be getting down on the thurday

[The Sweeper]

Birickkicker - Not certain if I'll be there yet. Looking at timetable could be finishing a bit late for as I've got to be up for work on Monday at some god earthly hour that most humans don't know exists. If we both come we'll bring the mansion, if it's just me I'll bring the 'ickle tent it's less hassle putting it up.