[Team] Racing Point: What now for Force India

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Confirmed that Stroll has had a seat fitting in the 2018 Force India.

It clearly must have perked him up a bit.......

[S griffin]

He didn't need a Force India today

[wolfhound]

The battle between Force India and Haas seems to be getting more bitter by the week
The latest protest is a bit rich from Haas about Force India not building their own cars, as Haas I suspect builds and designs the least amount of their own cars.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140299
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140310
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140311
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140314

[Mike Harte]

The reality is that the protests are really nothing to do with eligibility, but about money - a lot of it!

Haas is upset because, as a totally new entrant, it has to wait 3 years from the time that it entered the circus to start receiving what are referred to as Column One payments from FOM.

However, I believe that, and am happy to be corrected, the new owners of what was Force India will continue to receive C1 payments. And that gets up Haas' nose!

[S griffin]

That's because they are not technically a new entry, they are a makeover. Of course this is nothing new. Remember when Briatore making the big whoo ha about Brawn receiving TV money in 09, as he felt they shouldn't as again he said they were a new team, despite being Honda the season before

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That's because they are not technically a new entry, they are a makeover. Of course this is nothing new. Remember when Briatore making the big whoo ha about Brawn receiving TV money in 09, as he felt they shouldn't as again he said they were a new team, despite being Honda the season before

But there lies the reason for the appeal. The stewards ruled the Racing Point Force India team IS a new entry. Now what the FIA does with that decision can be debated but the ruling is currently new entry and new entries aren't eligible for that C1 money.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

But there lies the reason for the appeal. The stewards ruled the Racing Point Force India team IS a new entry. Now what the FIA does with that decision can be debated but the ruling is currently new entry and new entries aren't eligible for that C1 money.

FIA should just overturn all the BS, rule FI a continuous entry, reinstate their championship points and pay them their dues.
Should also do away with all these payment systems and pay the entrants equally.

[P38 in workshop]

Haas are obviously desperate.Force India still consists of the same people (except obviously Vijay Mallya and Bob Fernley) doing the same jobs and they designed and built the cars they are racing.The owners may have changed but the purpose of the team hasn't and they definitely weren't told to make their floor legal and consequently couldn't have failed to do so in time to avoid a penalty-unlike another organisation.I would be more impressed if the Haas organisation put the same effort into beating Force India on the racetrack rather than the courtroom.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Haas are obviously desperate.Force India still consists of the same people (except obviously Vijay Mallya and Bob Fernley) doing the same jobs and they designed and built the cars they are racing.The owners may have changed but the purpose of the team hasn't and they definitely weren't told to make their floor legal and consequently couldn't have failed to do so in time to avoid a penalty-unlike another organisation.I would be more impressed if the Haas organisation put the same effort into beating Force India on the racetrack rather than the courtroom.

I very much doubt that the lawyers fighting this battle have taken any resources away from the engineers who are working on the Haas cars.

It's not the first time that a team has protested over such a matter, and they probably have a point. The Force India team lost all their constructors points because of the change in ownership. It seems a shame that a team saved from the brink of disappearing is being targeted like this, but it all comes down to the rules. I'm sure Stroll Snr can afford a decent lawyer to fight his teams corner.

[S griffin]

Haas finished above Force India in the constructors championship. This is a lot of fuss over nothing

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Haas finished above Force India in the constructors championship. This is a lot of fuss over nothing

93 points to Force India's 52 but then only the last 9 races counted because of the ownership change. In 2017 Force India were 4th with 187 points.

It's the prize money Haas aren't happy about.

[Peter Mallett]

Isn't it about funds rather than points? I understand that HAAS still can't be paid the Column 2(?) payments because they've only just completed three years. Their argument is that since FI is a new team (in terms of ownership) then it, likewise, would not qualify for these funds until it had completed three years.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Isn't it about funds rather than points? I understand that HAAS still can't be paid the Column 2(?) payments because they've only just completed three years. Their argument is that since FI is a new team (in terms of ownership) then it, likewise, would not qualify for these funds until it had completed three years.

That's how I understand it and that seems fair.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's how I understand it and that seems fair.

It's rather difficult to determine whether you think that it is fair that the new owners are to receive payments for past years' achievements , or it is fair that they shouldn't.

My own view is that they should get the payments as a continuation of an existing team. I believe that there was a strong possibility that if FI hadn't been bought out completely that it may well have disappeared from the grid. It's finances were in a dire state, and with the financial net closing around Mallya (forget Roy, his money has dried up since he is still incarcerated in India), potential investors and sponsors were extremely wary about continued funding for the team. Added to which, the Indian authorities are of the belief that Mallya was illegally funding the team by syphoning cash from other companies under his control.

Stroll senior's take over has in effect rescued the team and all those employed by it. He has also ensured that suppliers have been paid - albeit late - and it means that their cars will be on the grid next year (as things stand at the moment).

Team Haas, on the other hand, are a completely new team started from scratch, and they joined the F1 circus based on the Concorde payments scheme willingly.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It's rather difficult to determine whether you think that it is fair that the new owners are to receive payments for past years' achievements , or it is fair that they shouldn't.

It's fair they shouldn't, as Racing Point Force India is a new team and therefore should not qualify for those payments, until completing three years. As a new team, Racing Point Force India aren't allowed to include the WCC points, Force India scored. If they were they would have finished 5th, with 111 points.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's fair they shouldn't, as Racing Point Force India is a new team and therefore should not qualify for those payments, until completing three years. As a new team, Racing Point Force India aren't allowed to include the WCC points, Force India scored. If they were they would have finished 5th, with 111 points.

It's not a new team; it's a new name given to an existing team.

Football clubs are not considered new when they get a change of owner. Nor does a trading company suddenly become a new enterprise just because the shareholders change.

It would appear that it is only in the hallowed world of Formula 1 that just because someone rescues a team it suddenly and mysteriously becomes a new entry. It defies logic!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It's not a new team; it's a new name given to an existing team.

Football clubs are not considered new when they get a change of owner. Nor does a trading company suddenly become a new enterprise just because the shareholders change.

It would appear that it is only in the hallowed world of Formula 1 that just because someone rescues a team it suddenly and mysteriously becomes a new entry. It defies logic!

C'mon Mike, you can't use 'Formula 1' & 'logic' in the same paragraph! (I was going to say 'sentence', then spotted your full stop!)

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It's not a new team; it's a new name given to an existing team.

Football clubs are not considered new when they get a change of owner. Nor does a trading company suddenly become a new enterprise just because the shareholders change.

It would appear that it is only in the hallowed world of Formula 1 that just because someone rescues a team it suddenly and mysteriously becomes a new entry. It defies logic!

You’ve misunderstood completely. It’s not the same company with new shareholders. It is an entirely new company that purchased assets from another, totally unrelated company.

[chillibowl]

for sure happy that the team was saved and the employees and suppliers were paid...credit to the new owners for that.

on the other hand, stripping a dying team of its assets and then rewarding that the new entity with prize money could very well be a terrible precedent to set. particularly if the next group that tries this decides that they dont want to pay off the debts of the old team/corporation.

so im of mixed feelings about this but feel like im siding with Haas on this.

that said FOM/Liberty should make them some sort of special payment. a) to make everything go away and b) to show that new entrants will not be subjugated in the same way as they have in the past/BE era.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You’ve misunderstood completely. It’s nit the same company with new shareholders. It is an entirely new company that purchased assets from another, entirely unrelated company.

That still employs 99% of the original employees, doing the same job from the same premises? I'm with Mike on this one.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It's not a new team; it's a new name given to an existing team.

Football clubs are not considered new when they get a change of owner. Nor does a trading company suddenly become a new enterprise just because the shareholders change.

It would appear that it is only in the hallowed world of Formula 1 that just because someone rescues a team it suddenly and mysteriously becomes a new entry. It defies logic!

If it's not a new team, then why can't they include Force India's WCC points in their total?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You’ve misunderstood completely. It’s not the same company with new shareholders. It is an entirely new company that purchased assets from another, totally unrelated company.

And if tomorrow, I went out and purchased the total Ferrari shareholding, then, by your logic, Ferrari would cease to exist?

Yet you ignore the fact that throughout Ferrari's history it has had various different owners. Until fairly recently it was a subsidiary of the Fiat Group, but now it is a stand alone company, with it's shares on the New York stock market.

Funnily enough, I didn't hear anyone claiming that it was a new team!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If it's not a new team, then why can't they include Force India's WCC points in their total?

It was a fudge to primarily pacify Haas.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And if tomorrow, I went out and purchased the total Ferrari shareholding, then, by your logic, Ferrari would cease to exist?

Yet you ignore the fact that throughout Ferrari's history it has had various different owners. Until fairly recently it was a subsidiary of the Fiat Group, but now it is a stand alone company, with it's shares on the New York stock market.

Funnily enough, I didn't hear anyone claiming that it was a new team!

Are you deliberately misunderstanding??

If you bought the Ferrari shares then, yes, you would own Ferrari.

If you started a new company and bought some cars from Ferrari, then you wouldn’t own Ferrari.

The latter is what happened because some of the creditors wouldn’t play the way some wanted them too, and they got totally shafted.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Yet you ignore the fact that throughout Ferrari's history it has had various different owners. Until fairly recently it was a subsidiary of the Fiat Group, but now it is a stand alone company, with it's shares on the New York stock market.

interesting point there...when they announced the Ferrari IPO they would have (i assume) taken as many assets as they could have and and left as much debt as possible with FIAT in order to inflate the IPO price/facilitate the transaction. rather they might have stripped one corporation for the benefit of another.

obviously i am just speculating but there could be a very similar legal/financial mechanic at play between what Racing Point did and what Ferrari had done with their changeover.

certainly food for thought...opinion changing!