[Team] Racing Point: What now for Force India

[davec]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

And more bad news. 'The team' is likely to lose all WCC points from the first 12 rounds. Apparently, it's part of a deal offered by Liberty Media, FOM and the other teams to keep 'the team' on the grid this weekend.


Things are going from bad to worse for these guys. Sad situation.

it will be even worse for Williams, if Force India have 59 points and the new team is still competitive then they will probably get around 30 points in the last 9 races. This means that at the end of the season Williams will in fact finish 11th out of 10 teams............

[S griffin]

It’s ridiculous this situation that has developed. They should keep the Force India name till the end of the season. And as for Bob Fearnley leaving, my blood boils

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s ridiculous this situation that has developed. They should keep the Force India name till the end of the season. And as for Bob Fearnley leaving, my blood boils

Presumably the administrator couldnt get the 13 banks to agree to release the entry licence asset.

End of an era? Maybe...

Perhaps Mr Fearnley suggested Mr Stroll Jr can't drive

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s ridiculous this situation that has developed. They should keep the Force India name till the end of the season. And as for Bob Fearnley leaving, my blood boils

The problem is not of all of Stroll's making.


Yes, he had control over the position with Fearnley, but it may be that it was Fearnley's decision that he left for one reason or another.


As to the team's name, that belongs to the holding company that owned the team. It appears that the company's creditors couldn't agree terms within the required time frame, so to save the team and it's employees, Stroll just purchased the team's physical assets. This, in effect, saved the team from liquidation and thus it disappearing from the grid.


This whole saga has been brought about by Mallya borrowing money from anywhere to keep the team afloat and to sustain his flamboyant lifestyle.



But it also needs to be said that by his creditors failing to reach an accommodation, they have probably sacrificed the most valuable assets, such as the team's entry licence and so on. What use is the entry name of Sahara Force India now to a buyer when there is no team behind the name?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The problem is not of all of Stroll's making.


Yes, he had control over the position with Fearnley, but it may be that it was Fearnley's decision that he left for one reason or another.


As to the team's name, that belongs to the holding company that owned the team. It appears that the company's creditors couldn't agree terms within the required time frame, so to save the team and it's employees, Stroll just purchased the team's physical assets. This, in effect, saved the team from liquidation and thus it disappearing from the grid.


This whole saga has been brought about by Mallya borrowing money from anywhere to keep the team afloat and to sustain his flamboyant lifestyle.



But it also needs to be said that by his creditors failing to reach an accommodation, they have probably sacrificed the most valuable assets, such as the team's entry licence and so on. What use is the entry name of Sahara Force India now to a buyer when there is no team behind the name?

Is the chassis designation still going to be "VJM11"?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s ridiculous this situation that has developed. They should keep the Force India name till the end of the season. And as for Bob Fearnley leaving, my blood boils

I don't think they can keep the name. I wouldn't be surprised if the controlling entity who owns the F1 team license is under lockdown from the Indian government, that's a high dollar commodity based on the money they would earn from competing. The sale isn't tough because of the forced administration, it's tough because the guy holding a lot of the assets was a crook and a scam artist. Now that is what got them in to trouble financially but the restrictions on what can be sold have made this more complicated. But as Mike said above, the playing hardball over releasing the license may have cost the banks all the money they thought it was worth, no physical assets means the entry is just a piece of paper.

From what I've gathered asking a couple lawyer friends, Stroll HAS to buy the assets themselves to raise the capital to pay debts. But he cannot buy the companies or any licenses they owned as they are not a physical asset, even though they are worth much more. Thus he is stuck buying the parts and the asking FOM if he can reassemble the puzzle after he pays them to use their table. It will work out costing more money BUT it is the only way to continue the team this season. If they had not worked out a deal the tea would have to have been liquidated to fulfill claims and the winding up process would have commenced.

Hopefully FOM is wielding Bernie like power (yeah, who would have said that was a good thing recently) and bringing the teams in line to show solidarity and allow the newly formed "PINK" team to play too. It sounds like there is a policy in place that can allow a new team to join midseason with 100% agreement of the teams. As they cannot use the Sahara Force India entry they would be a new team with a boatload of parts and drivers, but without any points or cash payouts. I have not seen whether they can earn points going forward to over-take another team, nor what happens with the driver points. It will be a BUSY day with the fax machines and legal documents flying around and would not at all be surprised if LM has summoned all the team principals to the track a little early to have face-to-face meetings.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I have not seen whether they can earn points going forward to over-take another team, nor what happens with the driver points. It will be a BUSY day with the fax machines and legal documents flying around and would not at all be surprised if LM has summoned all the team principals to the track a little early to have face-to-face meetings.

• The 'new team' will be allowed to earn WCC points in the remaining races.
• Both (current) drivers will retain all points earned, and any points earned for the rest of the season (even if one or both drivers were to change teams in 2018).
• FOM/LM and what looked like team/partner/sponsor representatives have been in and out of meetings all morning. There was a big all in meeting earlier this morning. No official announcement as yet.

[BSchneiderFan]

If it wasn’t voluntary, losing Fearnley is a big mistake. He’s worked wonders with that team, often on a shoestring.

[chunterer]

Fearnley was essentially Mallya's man on site though so i guess his departure is related to that. He maybe could not see himself working under the new ownership

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

• The 'new team' will be allowed to earn WCC points in the remaining races.
• Both (current) drivers will retain all points earned, and any points earned for the rest of the season (even if one or both drivers were to change teams in 2018).
• FOM/LM and what looked like team/partner/sponsor representatives have been in and out of meetings all morning. There was a big all in meeting earlier this morning. No official announcement as yet.

I knew someone here would have an answer, and in an information not you idiot how could you not know manner.

A few pictures I've seen has the team out putting sticky badging on the team equipment. Wonder if Lawrence gets to show off all his brands now with blank trailers. And now much work is going on on the cars themselves to get all that off?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

• The 'new team' will be allowed to earn WCC points in the remaining races.
• Both (current) drivers will retain all points earned, and any points earned for the rest of the season (even if one or both drivers were to change teams in 2018).
• FOM/LM and what looked like team/partner/sponsor representatives have been in and out of meetings all morning. There was a big all in meeting earlier this morning. No official announcement as yet.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I knew someone here would have an answer, and in an information not you idiot how could you not know manner.

Agree.

Related question for F1Guy or whoever can answer...

If this is a "new" team, would they start fresh on PU component allocations?

Richard

[Richard C]

On a related note... I think this situation exposes the problem of how a team "entry" is used as an asset causes more problems than it is worth. That fact that it can have a financial liens placed against it and then held hostage be creditors is IMHO not a good thing.

I am sure the current process of how they are allocated is designed to solve specific problems. But in the end, the goal should be to protect the overall (not sure of the word to use...) integrity, quality, prestige (?) of the series. We should not be in a position like this in which most everyone wants FI to survive, but those outside of the series are preventing this from moving forward.

I don't know what the solution is. Without putting much thought into it, I tend to think that the ability to "race" and the financial benefits (prize money from prior seasons, etc.) should be split. So in scenarios like this, those can be negotiated/addressed separately. I don't know much about how they are allocated. I seem to remember that a totally new entry (such as what Haas did) would include a large "fee" that is paid to... FIA/FOM? And that this probably is the root of it being defined as a transferable asset.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Agree.

Related question for F1Guy or whoever can answer...

If this is a "new" team, would they start fresh on PU component allocations?

Richard

**edited totally**

PU allocation is made against the driver, not the team.

[E.B]

Bernie would not have let it become the shambles it has turned into
He had the balls to stand up, bang a few heads together, and say 'this is what is going to be done' Crisis averted.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by E.B

Bernie would not have let it become the shambles it has turned into
He had the balls to stand up, bang a few heads together, and say 'this is what is going to be done' Crisis averted.

I believe that this situation is well beyond the "magical" capabilities of even Mr E. This is India that we are talking about, and even BCE was unable to stop their authorities trying to tax the F1 teams for their short stays in their country. That was one of the major reasons why there is no race there now.


The Indian banks appear to have been screwed over on loans made to Mallya and Roy (Sahara) and when they made the loans, Mallya agreed to the banks placing a lien on the holding company. It is pertinent that at the time the loans were advanced, it is likely that the "entry" was the most valuable asset of the company, and the banks obviously didn't want their best bargaining chip going on the cheap.


However, because the administrators took the decision that a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush, the permitted the physical assets of the team to be bought by Stroll's consortium, leaving the banks with pretty well nothing.


It all comes down to that old phrase, and there are a very few exceptions, that if you want to make a small fortune from F1 then you need to start with a large fortune.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I don't think they can keep the name. I wouldn't be surprised if the controlling entity who owns the F1 team license is under lockdown from the Indian government, that's a high dollar commodity based on the money they would earn from competing. The sale isn't tough because of the forced administration, it's tough because the guy holding a lot of the assets was a crook and a scam artist. Now that is what got them in to trouble financially but the restrictions on what can be sold have made this more complicated. But as Mike said above, the playing hardball over releasing the license may have cost the banks all the money they thought it was worth, no physical assets means the entry is just a piece of paper.

From what I've gathered asking a couple lawyer friends, Stroll HAS to buy the assets themselves to raise the capital to pay debts. But he cannot buy the companies or any licenses they owned as they are not a physical asset, even though they are worth much more. Thus he is stuck buying the parts and the asking FOM if he can reassemble the puzzle after he pays them to use their table. It will work out costing more money BUT it is the only way to continue the team this season. If they had not worked out a deal the tea would have to have been liquidated to fulfill claims and the winding up process would have commenced.

Hopefully FOM is wielding Bernie like power (yeah, who would have said that was a good thing recently) and bringing the teams in line to show solidarity and allow the newly formed "PINK" team to play too. It sounds like there is a policy in place that can allow a new team to join midseason with 100% agreement of the teams. As they cannot use the Sahara Force India entry they would be a new team with a boatload of parts and drivers, but without any points or cash payouts. I have not seen whether they can earn points going forward to over-take another team, nor what happens with the driver points. It will be a BUSY day with the fax machines and legal documents flying around and would not at all be surprised if LM has summoned all the team principals to the track a little early to have face-to-face meetings.

Good post. But, to me the situation sums up everything that is wrong with Formula One and why fans are turning off.


LS has bought the team, saved the jobs and the suppliers - a good thing, but due to the web of difficulties behind Force India, not the entry.


How can the Sahara Force India entry be an asset now - wasn't it the case with Manor that if they didn't complete the season, they forfeited the FOM prize money - so as SFI is a paper entry and has no team, will it not miss all the remaining races and therefore the FOM prize money?


It shows that the teams have too much influence again, not only on the rules but the entries because of their vested interests. However as pointed out in another post, if SFI keep their points on the board - Stroll F1 (for want of a better name) could overtake Williams in the remaining races, making them 11th in the WCCfor which there is NO prize money awarded. Thereby Williams could be shot by their own gun - so to speak.


Personally from 2021, I would like to see FOM shape the rules and prsent them to teams and they either enter or they don't, this constant influence on the regs from the teams is to the detriment of F1.

[karting]

New title please!!

Force India has been rebranded as Racing Point

http://www.skysports.com/share/11457389

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by karting

New title please!!

Force India has been rebranded as Racing Point

http://www.skysports.com/share/11457389

Still with Force India in the team name (for now).

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

**edited totally**

PU allocation is made against the driver, not the team.

Interesting. So if a team had to run a substitute driver for a weekend (replace a sick or injured driver), that driver (assuming he didn't come from another team) could get a fresh PU. Then after the event, that unit might never be used again? Or a team could burn through their allocation halfway through the season, put in a new driver (again, new to the season) and have a fresh allocation for the second half of the season with no penalties?

Richard

[BSchneiderFan]

Some irony in the name “Racing Point” when the biggest change is that they’ve lost their, well, points.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Interesting. So if a team had to run a substitute driver for a weekend (replace a sick or injured driver), that driver (assuming he didn't come from another team) could get a fresh PU. Then after the event, that unit might never be used again? Or a team could burn through their allocation halfway through the season, put in a new driver (again, new to the season) and have a fresh allocation for the second half of the season with no penalties?

Richard

No, he assumes the previous driver's allocation:

'If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing power unit usage.'

Although - could it be argued that the drivers are now driving for a new team?

'Unless he drives for more than one team (see 23.3(c) below), and subject to the additions described below, each driver may use no more than 3 engines (ICE), 3 motor generator units-heat (MGU-H), 3 turbochargers (TC), 2 energy stores (ES), 2 control electronics (CE) and 2 motor generator units-kinetic (MGU-K) during a Championship season. '

[Racer65]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Some irony in the name “Racing Point” when the biggest change is that they’ve lost their, well, points.

They haven't lost anything. It's a completely new entry.

[S griffin]

Not the first time a team has been stripped of all it’s points in the championship

[Adam43]

I suspect that Racing Point Force India will still score more points than Williams this year.

I’m pleased they are on the grid. I suppose that’s the main thing. It’s a shame there is the ‘break’. Good luck to them.

They might already be my favourite for team of the race

EDIT: Just realised I basically repeated what had been said before. I posted and missed an entire page

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Racer65

They haven't lost anything. It's a completely new entry.

... with the same cars, drivers and (mostly) personnel working out of the same factory as Force India.