[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Indeed. Williams is already buying the gearbox from Mercedes. What could they possibly buy more from Mercedes without violating the rules? After all, each team must build its own chassis.

I think the answer for the recent troubles of Williams is inside of this team. Williams has been extremely erratic this whole decade. They go from midfield in 2010 to a backmarker in 2011, and then back to midfield and even winning race in 2012. They do well with the post-2013 Mercedes engine, Massa, and Bottas, but then go back from hero to zero now. Why?

One problem Williams has once in a while IMHO, and relying too much on pay drivers. In the 2018 season, they relied on two average and very green pay-drivers with pretty much expected results. They should have retained at least one proven good driver. It would have been much better to retain Massa for 2018 if they didn't have other alternatives.

William's don't use the Merdedes gearbox. PL wanted to go that route and the rear end assembly I believe. So Williams are still designing and building their own.

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[P38 in workshop]

Its this very erratic performance that leads me to believe the fundamental engineering ability is within the building.It needs somebody to remove the barriers or attitudes that obstruct the creation of a competitive car. They have to acknowledge that there is a need to function as a team searching for performance. It is possible in their position to erect barriers between departments and for the occupants of each to believe that their part is doing OK and the fault lies elsewhere. Its normally the whole car that scores points, or doesn't, regardless of any belief in one particular part or system.

[Casper]

Is the presumption that Lowe voluntarily walked or was fired?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Casper

Is the presumption that Lowe voluntarily walked or was fired?

Currently he is on 'leave of absence' so technically has neither walked or been fired. Should he not return, then I suspect it might be a blend of the two by 'mutual consent' or whatever the current term is.

One for the lawyers and cheque book to resolve I expect.

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[S griffin]

Will Lowe want to come back? I guess we’ll see how he feels during his leave of abscence

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Will Lowe want to come back? I guess we’ll see how he feels during his leave of abscence

All I know is if I ran a project in my line of business like the Williams debacle I wouldn’t be asked back!! Indeed I would have done the honerable thing and left -

[Paradise City]

Lowe has a stake in that team and it's hard to disentangle that. Lowe may also have some personal issue there that may have caused this and maybe they'll bring him back if that is resolved if that is the case. I don't think either Claire or Jonathan are up to the standard to turn around this team tbh. Claire has had a few years now.

I like each of their drivers as drivers but together as their line up? It's a tricky line up to have full confidence in. Neither are competition-warm at F1 level.

It'd be great if they could turn around all this pre-season anarchy and turn in a good result in Australia. What a story that would be.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Lowe has a stake in that team and it's hard to disentangle that.

Not so sure anything has actually vested yet.

[S griffin]

Well Williams are in a bit of a mess despite everything and nobody is sure which way it is going

[wnut]

the illegal parts on the Williams described by Craig Scarborough.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/03...sed-by-scarbs/

Seems like there is quite a lot of advanced thinking going on, it is dubious whether the parts are illegal, and should designers not be pushing the boundaries of design?

Was this run past Charlie Whiting for legality before installation during the off season?

[S griffin]

Well I’m sure they are not illegal, just not done very well

However it’s bad enough if your car is slow without being illegal too! I’m sure they haven’t done that though

But anything they are unsure of, they’ll talk over with Charlie

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by wnut

the illegal parts on the Williams described by Craig Scarborough.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/03...sed-by-scarbs/

Seems like there is quite a lot of advanced thinking going on, it is dubious whether the parts are illegal, and should designers not be pushing the boundaries of design?

Was this run past Charlie Whiting for legality before installation during the off season?

No point running questionable bits if they are slower

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

No point running questionable bits if they are slower

Even if they are illegal.

[Richard C]

I think it's easy to be critical of Williams regarding the potential for parts being deemed not within the rules. They didn't plan to show up late for testing or to be the slowest. So they should be working on creative solutions. Pushing the envelope in the grey areas is how innovation happens in F1. Especially when it comes to aero.

However, showing up late, being slow and then trying ideas that may be disallowed... A nightmare start to the season so far. The most positive thing I can say is... It always could be worse.

Someday, someone is going to write a book about this. Especially if the drama continues. I just hate that it is going to likely be years from now as to when the true story of what is going on at Williams comes out. Right now it is mostly speculation along with a list of bodies on the ground and poor performance on track. And that story starts a good bit prior to the current Lowe departure. I think his departure is just a result of whatever cancer exists within that team. As much as everyone wants to jump on Claire (I have mostly given her the benefit of doubt until very recently), it's probably less about her than it is her inability to address whatever is going on. As to "cancer", it may not be her, but she may just be playing the role of the doctor that fails to cure it. Lowe may have been a failed treatment, or the wrong treatment for whatever problem exists. Time for a new doctor.

I think it was maybe in this thread, or maybe the 2019 predictions thread in which someone said that Williams needs to NOT have a family member running the F1 team. I think that would be a VERY smart idea. It reminds me of what Porsche did in the 1970's. They basically restructured in a way that prevented Porsche/Piech family members from running the business. They could still pull levers at a very high level, but were not involved in day to day operations. This is probably what Williams needs right now for the F1 operation and maybe the entire Williams Group.

Richard

[GTRMagic]

What is Mr Head doing these days?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

What is Mr Head doing these days?

I think you mean Sir Patrick Head, as he is now officially known.

When he resigned his post as Director of Engineering in 2011, continuing as a Board Director of Williams Hybrid Engineering, but that finished when Williams sold the company a few years ago. AFAIK there is no longer any connection with Williams these days. I know when Patrick retired from F1 he said he was looking forward to enjoying time with his family, and he is now must be mid 70's, so not about to want to get back into mainstream F1 involvement. He certainly doesnt need the money, having cashed in his shareholding in Williams at the right time with enough for his and family's future needs.

He occasionally appears at FIA events these days and is I believe against electric power / hybridisation of F1, claiming that FE with its manufacturer involvement should be covering that aspect and is the focus of the manufacturers.

He spoke at an FIA Sport event just over a year or so ago talking about the future and past of F1 and his thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HSTriFsTSI

[wnut]

I would be far more relaxed about the future of F1 if Liberty Media had employed Sir Patrick to sort out the future rules of F1 instead of Mr Brawn.

[S griffin]

Well they've not got the right people in place. Head though is probably enjoying his retirement, but I don't know what Ross Brawn is doing with regards to F1

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think it was maybe in this thread, or maybe the 2019 predictions thread in which someone said that Williams needs to NOT have a family member running the F1 team. I think that would be a VERY smart idea. It reminds me of what Porsche did in the 1970's. They basically restructured in a way that prevented Porsche/Piech family members from running the business. They could still pull levers at a very high level, but were not involved in day to day operations. This is probably what Williams needs right now for the F1 operation and maybe the entire Williams Group. Richard

t'was I !


To expand on this, a family member comes with too much baggage - they will understandably be consumed by protecting the Williams legacy and continually proving to SFW that they are up to the job, the name over the door aspect is almost too much of a burden to carry in the front line of the team. You can still do all of the above from the comfort of the board room instead of the pit lane.


Williams F1 of old (or GP engineering if you like) was Frank, who lived and breathed it 24/7 with the sort of energy and dedication that few people have and to the detriment of other aspects of his life as highlighted in the recent Williams documentary. Neither Clare or JW are Frank - JW does posses the same detailed knowledge of Williams, he can reel off precise histories of their cars and races, but that doesn't make you a great team principal.


I read Peter Windsor's piece and arguably he is taking about how you could run an F1 team 20 years ago, so despite his insight I don't know how relevant it is. Arguably a senior director at say Tesco who is responsible for operating 1,000 stores with 50,000 lines in each that need to be stocked and open 24/7 could bring much to an F1 team, they don't need to know how to build an F1 car, but they know about resourcing, managing people and crucial deadlines.


If I was on Williams board I would look outside F1, it is too cliquey and they will only bring with them ideas and working practices that you may not be able to implement anyway, so I would go for a clean sheet of paper.

[loon]

All things decay and die, Williams has just reached it's natural ending.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

t'was I !


To expand on this, a family member comes with too much baggage - they will understandably be consumed by protecting the Williams legacy and continually proving to SFW that they are up to the job, the name over the door aspect is almost too much of a burden to carry in the front line of the team. You can still do all of the above from the comfort of the board room instead of the pit lane.


Williams F1 of old (or GP engineering if you like) was Frank, who lived and breathed it 24/7 with the sort of energy and dedication that few people have and to the detriment of other aspects of his life as highlighted in the recent Williams documentary. Neither Clare or JW are Frank - JW does posses the same detailed knowledge of Williams, he can reel off precise histories of their cars and races, but that doesn't make you a great team principal.


I read Peter Windsor's piece and arguably he is taking about how you could run an F1 team 20 years ago, so despite his insight I don't know how relevant it is. Arguably a senior director at say Tesco who is responsible for operating 1,000 stores with 50,000 lines in each that need to be stocked and open 24/7 could bring much to an F1 team, they don't need to know how to build an F1 car, but they know about resourcing, managing people and crucial deadlines.


If I was on Williams board I would look outside F1, it is too cliquey and they will only bring with them ideas and working practices that you may not be able to implement anyway, so I would go for a clean sheet of paper.

They did that with Adam Parr who is well respected in industry. His face didn't fit with the high ups in F1 - probably a bit too clever for them - and got shafted out

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Lowe has a stake in that team and it's hard to disentangle that. Lowe may also have some personal issue there that may have caused this and maybe they'll bring him back if that is resolved if that is the case. I don't think either Claire or Jonathan are up to the standard to turn around this team tbh. Claire has had a few years now.

I like each of their drivers as drivers but together as their line up? It's a tricky line up to have full confidence in. Neither are competition-warm at F1 level.

It'd be great if they could turn around all this pre-season anarchy and turn in a good result in Australia. What a story that would be.

Jonathan hasn't been given a chance so you can't say that yet. He has nothing to do with the F1 Team, particularly given the apparent rift. He has form for running race teams and it was assumed he was the natural heir.

Claire probably just isn't ruthless enough or all consumed in what's needed to run an F1 team. She's probably a bit too nice for an F1 leading role in the same way as Dominicalli and Whitmarsh were and same as Claire, both of those guys are undoubtedly highly skilled. It's not easy. Just look at the odd balls who ran F1 teams over the years.

Probably a bit late now though. Williams F1 will end up being sold off before it crumbles into the dust. Some rich Middle Eastern investors when there are no more football teams worth buying.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Graz

Jonathan hasn't been given a chance so you can't say that yet. He has nothing to do with the F1 Team, particularly given the apparent rift. He has form for running race teams and it was assumed he was the natural heir.

Claire probably just isn't ruthless enough or all consumed in what's needed to run an F1 team. She's probably a bit too nice for an F1 leading role in the same way as Dominicalli and Whitmarsh were and same as Claire, both of those guys are undoubtedly highly skilled. It's not easy. Just look at the odd balls who ran F1 teams over the years.

Probably a bit late now though. Williams F1 will end up being sold off before it crumbles into the dust. Some rich Middle Eastern investors when there are no more football teams worth buying.

Going back to my Porsche example. I can't say what was in the mind of the Porsche family when they decided to extract the next generation from the management of the company. I can imagine it was two fold. First, it is probably more healthy to hire the right people vs. allow nepotism. Second, it may also have been to help preserve a level of harmony within family vs. promote competition and eventually strife within the family.

For Porsche they had people like Butzi Porsche and Ferdinand Piëch battling for power (among others of that generation). The change in structure pushed them to be successful elsewhere and to not be in direct competition. Ferdinand moved into Audi and Butzi created his Porsche design firm that exists to this day. Not to say there is not internal power struggles within the Porsche family, but it was more controlled. Plus the holdings of the Porsche/Piëch family dwarfs that of the Williams family. Regardless, in an attempt to "keep it in the family", Williams allowed the sibling rift to play out.

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Going back to my Porsche example. I can't say what was in the mind of the Porsche family when they decided to extract the next generation from the management of the company. I can imagine it was two fold. First, it is probably more healthy to hire the right people vs. allow nepotism. Second, it may also have been to help preserve a level of harmony within family vs. promote competition and eventually strife within the family.

For Porsche they had people like Butzi Porsche and Ferdinand Piëch battling for power (among others of that generation). The change in structure pushed them to be successful elsewhere and to not be in direct competition. Ferdinand moved into Audi and Butzi created his Porsche design firm that exists to this day. Not to say there is not internal power struggles within the Porsche family, but it was more controlled. Plus the holdings of the Porsche/Piëch family dwarfs that of the Williams family. Regardless, in an attempt to "keep it in the family", Williams allowed the sibling rift to play out.

Richard

Add to which at the level that Williams are, F1 is increasingly a year at a time results based business. If you don't get the results it affects your FOM cash, in the case of 2018 you lose two paying 'customers' because the product you have delivered is not good enough, which in turns affects your appeal to other 'paying customers' and sponsors and impacts on your budget to build the next product.



All of the above affects the value of the business and impact on shareholders, etc



Three bad years could in a row can have a severe impact.

[VIVA GT]

I suppose that this is a hurdle that a lot of 'family businesses' have to cross at some point, a difficult one in any situation, but probably made more difficult when the business also uses the family name. I suppose SFW (and others in a similar situation) have to accept that Williams Grand Prix Engineering can still be called that (and even still be that), even if the person at the helm has a different surname.
Not trying to trivialise things, but I suppose that if the company was called Didcot Grand Prix Engineering they may not have felt able to move the HQ to Grove...