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Old 22 Jul 2021, 13:37 (Ref:4062681)   #451
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I respectfully disagree.

Its one thing to complain/ ask the FIA to check the legality of a car....Red Bull and others are as guilty of doing that to the Mercedes car in the past, but its an entirely different thing to accuse another driver of trying to kill/ injure one of yours, calling someoene disrespectful etc etc etc.

The rhetoric from Horner, Marko, Max during and after the race was quite distastful and over the top, especially given the amount of incidents both red bull drivers have been involved in over the last few years.

I didnt hear other team managers make such accusations about Max in Portugual last year for instance (both Strolls and Perez incident on the Sunday)
I haven't seen a single comment from the Red Bull camp that accuses Lewis of trying to kill/injure Max. Yes, some passionate rhetoric saying that the move was desperate, silly and that the penalty should have been stronger or that the celebrations were distasteful.

Respectfully, the Portugal 2020 incidents were similar in contact but very different in consequences. From memory they were much slower speed, no-one ended up in the wall and each car continued. The stewards don't have to regard consequences from an incident but team managers certainly do have to consider them. This explains but doesn't excuse some of the Red Bull rhetoric.

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Old 22 Jul 2021, 14:07 (Ref:4062684)   #452
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I haven't seen a single comment from the Red Bull camp that accuses Lewis of trying to kill/injure Max. Yes, some passionate rhetoric saying that the move was desperate, silly and that the penalty should have been stronger or that the celebrations were distasteful.
i dont think he explicitly said that either but he was heavily leaning towards suggesting that this was the obvious conclusion.

on one hand i can accept that Horner is just doing his job and being a passionate advocate for his drivers (part of me likes this about him as a team leader) but on the other hand, he is a smart person and must be aware that his comments also have consequences and it doesnt help that he feed the sensationalists desire of the media and some online communities.

he shouldn't be escalating imo. he shouldn't be throwing fuel on the fire...if for no other reason then it might be his driver/his team which ultimately gets burned by this narrative.

from an optics point of view, what room has he left himself the next time Max or Perez have an incident with another driver?

my guess, he will walk this back next race weekend.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 14:18 (Ref:4062686)   #453
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I haven't seen a single comment from the Red Bull camp that accuses Lewis of trying to kill/injure Max. Yes, some passionate rhetoric saying that the move was desperate, silly and that the penalty should have been stronger or that the celebrations were distasteful.
Maybe not directly, but they have allowed that implication to be made.

Helmut Marko - 'You can’t hit your opponent on the rear wheel in one of the fastest corners, the lightest touch has fatal consequences. So an irresponsible action.'
'I don’t know what the maximum penalty would be, but such dangerous and reckless behaviour should be punished with a suspension or something. If a competitor massively touches our rear wheel with his front wheel, then that’s no longer a racing accident in the fastest corner of the track – that is negligent-to-dangerous behaviour.'

Asked if Hamilton’s move on Verstappen left his star man’s life in danger, a furious Horner replied: “Of course. His actions have put in jeopardy another driver’s safety and for me that is unacceptable. [...] He started wheel-banging with Max and then to stick a wheel up the inside at Copse Corner, one of the fastest in this championship, pretty much flat-out at 180mph, there’s only ever likely to be one consequence of that.[...] We were very lucky someone wasn’t seriously injured."
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 15:00 (Ref:4062695)   #454
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Horner had plenty to say.

"I hope he can sleep at night"

Celebrations while a driver is in hospital etc

Hollow celebrations.

Dangerous and reckless behavior.


Plus the rumblings from Marko about Hamilton needing banning, trying to get him disqualified during the race and appointing a lawyer to look into it after the race.


I actually thought that I would not mind if someone else won the WDC for a change, but for me it's hard to like this Red Bull lot.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 15:05 (Ref:4062699)   #455
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He started wheel-banging with Max....

Ah, Lewis started that, did he? Must watch it again......
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 16:03 (Ref:4062713)   #456
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As I have mentioned elsewhere (and please accept my apologies if it is earlier in this thread) we know only too well how horrible Red Bull when they think that something or someone has prevented them from winning something. Poor Renault had to put up with this type of thing for way too long...
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 16:40 (Ref:4062719)   #457
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Another review of the accident, penalty and issues arising....

Who's to Blame? Hamilton vs Verstappen: Chaos at Silverstone

https://youtu.be/enVOLoPzfrE
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 16:59 (Ref:4062723)   #458
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I respectfully disagree.

...

The rhetoric from Horner, Marko, Max during and after the race was quite distastful and over the top, especially given the amount of incidents both red bull drivers have been involved in over the last few years.
I get Marko and Horner. No offense to both but Marko always seems to come with ridiculous hot takes, while Horner looks like that minister of information from the Saddam era, having no issues change stories to something that better fits his needs even though everyone knows its BS.

But Max? What did he say what was distacefull and over the top?

To me it was a racing incident. Having said that i found the podium interview/reaction from Hamilton surprising to say the least. And can understand why Max felt as he posted on insta.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 17:23 (Ref:4062725)   #459
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But Max? What did he say what was distacefull and over the top?
On this occasion, Max's comments may not have been as distasteful as Horner / Marko. But I think it is the reference to being 'dangerous' and 'unsportsmanlike' that chimes with his team's comments.

'The penalty given does not help us and doesn't do justice to the dangerous move Lewis made on track. Watching the celebrations while still in hospital is disrespectful and unsportsmanlike behaviour but we move on.'

The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement.

When diving up the inside of Stroll in 2020, leading to contact and Stroll spinning out: "What a retard. I have damage. What a mongol. I swear."
When receiving a penalty in 2017 for track infringements, he referred to an FIA steward as a "mongol".
When discussing a 'physical spat' with Ocon in 2018, called Ocon a "pussy" in the press conference.

On none of these occasions did the team take any action to (publicly) reprimand or condemn the comments (that I am aware of).

Apologies if this has dragged on and gone off topic, but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team? I wonder if this is part of what is in Toto's mind when he says - 'Nevertheless, the language that was used, and making it so personal, was a level that we have not seen in this sport before. I understand the emotions of his father, I'd probably do the same, but I'd use different language. I think controversy and polarisation are OK in sport, but when you attack someone personally, you've gone too far'

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Old 22 Jul 2021, 18:00 (Ref:4062728)   #460
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The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement.
I agree with this. Verstappen came into F1 as a 17-year old - a child, basically. He is still only 23. Such prodigious talent in a very young man needed to be nurtured and protected. I don't think he got that from Red Bull (or his father) because they were terrified of losing their greatest asset. The lack of serious consequences for those outbursts and the apparent lack of even a quiet calming word served Verstappen poorly.

He clearly has matured and as far as I can see from afar conducts himself well. However, he still has a lot to learn. In this case even if he was 100% entitled to the corner and Hamilton 100% wrong, he should still have let Hamilton past. If it was a banzai move then the stewards would deal with it. If not, there would have been plenty of opportunity to regain the lead. And even if that didn't happen, the worst outcome would have been a second place and a small points loss.

You don't need to win every corner of every race to become World Champion. Hamilton knows that, but Verstappen doesn't yet. It would be much more helpful to him to have Horner helping him realise this rather than going to war and adding fuel to a media fire that was going to burn hot enough anyway.

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Old 22 Jul 2021, 20:55 (Ref:4062754)   #461
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I find it interesting that everyone... Drivers, team owners and fans all have strong opinions on this. And everyone... is calling each other out regarding the validity of their positions and appropriate level of vitriol to apply. Am I alone in seeing the irony in all of this?

TL;DR "I am enraged that someone else is enraged".

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Old 22 Jul 2021, 21:07 (Ref:4062757)   #462
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Not here though really. I think there has generally been quite a bit of concensus here about this being a 'racing incident'. I think the majority of the rage has come from those who resort to those parts of social media where the possession of a conscience and the ability to discuss an issue rationally are completely unnecessary attributes....
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 22:07 (Ref:4062764)   #463
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Having been offline for a few days and now just catching up with this thread I'm surprised nobody else (I think) has mentioned the inconsistency in the penalties handed out by the stewards to Hamilton and Russell. Russell was penalised for a minor contact with Sainz by losing three positions in the race. Hamilton for a more serious contact (the actual initial contact, not the resulting crash) with MV received a measly 10 seconds. Surely consistency in imposing penalties should have resulted in LH being demoted to fourth place.


Do we know who the stewards/driver consultant were on the day?


I actually believe that the contact was a 'racing incident', as was Russell's, but if you give someone the power to penalise others (stewards) they are going to use and probably abuse,that power.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 22:14 (Ref:4062765)   #464
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 23:52 (Ref:4062770)   #465
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Having been offline for a few days and now just catching up with this thread I'm surprised nobody else (I think) has mentioned the inconsistency in the penalties handed out by the stewards to Hamilton and Russell. Russell was penalised for a minor contact with Sainz by losing three positions in the race. Hamilton for a more serious contact (the actual initial contact, not the resulting crash) with MV received a measly 10 seconds. Surely consistency in imposing penalties should have resulted in LH being demoted to fourth place.
IIRC, the stewards reviewed Russell's incident after the sprint, at which time they had a range of penalties available.

If they had applied the minimum 5sec - he would have been dropped 4 places on the grid. 10sec and he would have dropped 8 places. So as it stands, a 3 place penalty was less than a time penalty.
The stewards report for Russell's incident reads:

'The Stewards note that breaches of the regulations of this sort in a race normally result in time penalties, which are scaled based on normal Grand Prix race lengths. Both because of the shorter length of Sprint Qualifying and because it is used to establish the grid for the race, the Stewards feel that grid position penalties, as imposed here, are more appropriate.'
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 23:57 (Ref:4062771)   #466
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Do we know who the stewards/driver consultant were on the day?
Nish Shetty, Dennis Dean, Loic Bacquelaine, Eric Cowcill and Emanuele Pirro.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 23:57 (Ref:4062772)   #467
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The stewards can only apply the rules, not make up new ones as they go!

I agree and I was asking only for consistency, not new rules. In fact, Mr Malcolm's quote (in the post following your post) from the stewards re Russell's penalty seems to me as if they are making new rules.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 23:58 (Ref:4062774)   #468
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Nish Shetty, Dennis Dean, Loic Bacquelaine, Eric Cowcill and Emanuele Pirro.

Mr Pirro certainly has credentials.
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Old 23 Jul 2021, 00:46 (Ref:4062785)   #469
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Apologies if this has dragged on and gone off topic, but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team? I wonder if this is part of what is in Toto's mind when he says - 'Nevertheless, the language that was used, and making it so personal, was a level that we have not seen in this sport before. I understand the emotions of his father, I'd probably do the same, but I'd use different language. I think controversy and polarisation are OK in sport, but when you attack someone personally, you've gone too far'
So now you're subtly inferring that Red Bull are racists?

Your anti-Horner/Marko/Red Bull agenda in this thread is getting a bit out of hand now.
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Old 23 Jul 2021, 04:00 (Ref:4062795)   #470
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On this occasion, Max's comments may not have been as distasteful as Horner / Marko. But I think it is the reference to being 'dangerous' and 'unsportsmanlike' that chimes with his team's comments.

'The penalty given does not help us and doesn't do justice to the dangerous move Lewis made on track. Watching the celebrations while still in hospital is disrespectful and unsportsmanlike behaviour but we move on.'

The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement.

When diving up the inside of Stroll in 2020, leading to contact and Stroll spinning out: "What a retard. I have damage. What a mongol. I swear."
When receiving a penalty in 2017 for track infringements, he referred to an FIA steward as a "mongol".
When discussing a 'physical spat' with Ocon in 2018, called Ocon a "pussy" in the press conference.

On none of these occasions did the team take any action to (publicly) reprimand or condemn the comments (that I am aware of).

Apologies if this has dragged on and gone off topic, but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team? I wonder if this is part of what is in Toto's mind when he says - 'Nevertheless, the language that was used, and making it so personal, was a level that we have not seen in this sport before. I understand the emotions of his father, I'd probably do the same, but I'd use different language. I think controversy and polarisation are OK in sport, but when you attack someone personally, you've gone too far'
Why would the team reprimand Max for something that was likely said in the heat of the moment? Why would they make him publicly apologise? That's up to the broadcasters not the team.

Did Mclaren reprimand Lewis after he jokingly accused the stewards of being bias against him "because he was black" in 2011? I would hope not, but your post suggests that they should have.

Now, I do not condone any of the some of disablist language Max (and others) have used in the past but I'm not sure how it connects with what you are implying in the second half of your post. As far as I can see the only publically personal remark Max has made is to call Hamilton 'unsporting' and 'disrespectful'.

As I said a few posts ago, Toto and Horner are playing 'the game'. Horner has arguably shown weakness by trying to back up his driver so passionately and Toto's deadpan put downs are just a distraction away from the fact that his driver was seen as fault for the incident.
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Old 23 Jul 2021, 04:10 (Ref:4062796)   #471
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On this occasion, Max's comments may not have been as distasteful as Horner / Marko. But I think it is the reference to being 'dangerous' and 'unsportsmanlike' that chimes with his team's comments.

'The penalty given does not help us and doesn't do justice to the dangerous move Lewis made on track. Watching the celebrations while still in hospital is disrespectful and unsportsmanlike behaviour but we move on.'

The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement.

When diving up the inside of Stroll in 2020, leading to contact and Stroll spinning out: "What a retard. I have damage. What a mongol. I swear."
When receiving a penalty in 2017 for track infringements, he referred to an FIA steward as a "mongol".
When discussing a 'physical spat' with Ocon in 2018, called Ocon a "pussy" in the press conference.

On none of these occasions did the team take any action to (publicly) reprimand or condemn the comments (that I am aware of).

Apologies if this has dragged on and gone off topic, but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team? I wonder if this is part of what is in Toto's mind when he says - 'Nevertheless, the language that was used, and making it so personal, was a level that we have not seen in this sport before. I understand the emotions of his father, I'd probably do the same, but I'd use different language. I think controversy and polarisation are OK in sport, but when you attack someone personally, you've gone too far'
Why would the team reprimand Max for something that was likely said in the heat of the moment? Why would they make him publicly apologise? That's up to the broadcasters or the governing body to instigate not the team. Most radio conversations are basically private team conversations, which we are lucky enough to hear for entertainment purposes. It's really no different to when you overhear other sportstars swearing or calling each other idiots (and stronger words) on their field of play.

Did Mclaren reprimand Lewis after he jokingly accused the stewards of being bias against him "because he was black" in 2011? I would hope not, but your post suggests that they should have.

Now, I do not condone any of the disablist/racial slur language Max (and others) have used in the past but I'm not sure how it connects with what you are implying in the second half of your post. As far as I can see the only publically personal remark Max has made in relation to this incident is to call Hamilton 'unsporting' and 'disrespectful'.

As I said a few posts ago, Toto and Horner are playing 'the game'. Horner has arguably shown weakness by trying to back up his driver so passionately and Toto's deadpan put downs are just a distraction away from the fact that his driver was seen as fault for the incident.

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Old 23 Jul 2021, 05:30 (Ref:4062801)   #472
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Roninho should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
On this occasion, Max's comments may not have been as distasteful as Horner / Marko. But I think it is the reference to being 'dangerous' and 'unsportsmanlike' that chimes with his team's comments.

'The penalty given does not help us and doesn't do justice to the dangerous move Lewis made on track. Watching the celebrations while still in hospital is disrespectful and unsportsmanlike behaviour but we move on.'

The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement.
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Again, what is distasteful in Max his quote/reaction?
You have a long reply with a lot of stuff from the past, but nothing on why it is distasteful. But still start your story by it is distasteful, just not as distasteful as markos/horner.
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Old 23 Jul 2021, 05:40 (Ref:4062802)   #473
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Again, what is distasteful in Max his quote/reaction?
You have a long reply with a lot of stuff from the past, but nothing on why it is distasteful. But still start your story by it is distasteful, just not as distasteful as markos/horner.
Yeah, Max shared his personal opinion that he felt Lewis was being unsportsmanlike, to which he then ended with "but we move on". Not sure how that's a really nasty personal attack or distasteful at all.

But the internet does demand outrage.

Could very easily find 100s of examples of drivers in the spur of the moment on team radio yelling "Is he trying to kill us??"... Even Mick Schumacher did it in Baku when Mazepin blocked. Does that mean Mick is also the devil incarnate now for his nasty personal attack on Nikita?
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Old 23 Jul 2021, 06:09 (Ref:4062803)   #474
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So now you're subtly inferring that Red Bull are racists?
You know perfectly well that there was no such inference, subtle or otherwise. The point made - with which I agree - was that the reaction to this in an age of polarised outrage was likely to be fierce enough without Horner stoking the flames. A senior team Principal should be acting with more thought, no matter what the emotions of the moment. Horner called down a firestorm on Hamilton and while he is not responsible for those individuals who chose to add racist abuse to their outrage, it was entirely predictable and another reason why he should have turned down the rhetoric several notches.
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Old 23 Jul 2021, 06:57 (Ref:4062806)   #475
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You know perfectly well that there was no such inference, subtle or otherwise. The point made - with which I agree - was that the reaction to this in an age of polarised outrage was likely to be fierce enough without Horner stoking the flames. A senior team Principal should be acting with more thought, no matter what the emotions of the moment. Horner called down a firestorm on Hamilton and while he is not responsible for those individuals who chose to add racist abuse to their outrage, it was entirely predictable and another reason why he should have turned down the rhetoric several notches.
There was absolutely an inference, it was brought up in the same sentence:

"but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team?"
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