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22 Jul 2021, 13:37 (Ref:4062681) | #451 | ||
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Respectfully, the Portugal 2020 incidents were similar in contact but very different in consequences. From memory they were much slower speed, no-one ended up in the wall and each car continued. The stewards don't have to regard consequences from an incident but team managers certainly do have to consider them. This explains but doesn't excuse some of the Red Bull rhetoric. Last edited by Beau2; 22 Jul 2021 at 13:54. |
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22 Jul 2021, 14:07 (Ref:4062684) | #452 | |||
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on one hand i can accept that Horner is just doing his job and being a passionate advocate for his drivers (part of me likes this about him as a team leader) but on the other hand, he is a smart person and must be aware that his comments also have consequences and it doesnt help that he feed the sensationalists desire of the media and some online communities. he shouldn't be escalating imo. he shouldn't be throwing fuel on the fire...if for no other reason then it might be his driver/his team which ultimately gets burned by this narrative. from an optics point of view, what room has he left himself the next time Max or Perez have an incident with another driver? my guess, he will walk this back next race weekend. |
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22 Jul 2021, 14:18 (Ref:4062686) | #453 | |||
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Helmut Marko - 'You can’t hit your opponent on the rear wheel in one of the fastest corners, the lightest touch has fatal consequences. So an irresponsible action.' 'I don’t know what the maximum penalty would be, but such dangerous and reckless behaviour should be punished with a suspension or something. If a competitor massively touches our rear wheel with his front wheel, then that’s no longer a racing accident in the fastest corner of the track – that is negligent-to-dangerous behaviour.' Asked if Hamilton’s move on Verstappen left his star man’s life in danger, a furious Horner replied: “Of course. His actions have put in jeopardy another driver’s safety and for me that is unacceptable. [...] He started wheel-banging with Max and then to stick a wheel up the inside at Copse Corner, one of the fastest in this championship, pretty much flat-out at 180mph, there’s only ever likely to be one consequence of that.[...] We were very lucky someone wasn’t seriously injured." |
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22 Jul 2021, 15:00 (Ref:4062695) | #454 | ||
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Horner had plenty to say.
"I hope he can sleep at night" Celebrations while a driver is in hospital etc Hollow celebrations. Dangerous and reckless behavior. Plus the rumblings from Marko about Hamilton needing banning, trying to get him disqualified during the race and appointing a lawyer to look into it after the race. I actually thought that I would not mind if someone else won the WDC for a change, but for me it's hard to like this Red Bull lot. |
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22 Jul 2021, 15:05 (Ref:4062699) | #455 | ||
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96 days... |
22 Jul 2021, 16:03 (Ref:4062713) | #456 | ||
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As I have mentioned elsewhere (and please accept my apologies if it is earlier in this thread) we know only too well how horrible Red Bull when they think that something or someone has prevented them from winning something. Poor Renault had to put up with this type of thing for way too long...
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22 Jul 2021, 16:40 (Ref:4062719) | #457 | ||
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Another review of the accident, penalty and issues arising....
Who's to Blame? Hamilton vs Verstappen: Chaos at Silverstone https://youtu.be/enVOLoPzfrE |
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22 Jul 2021, 16:59 (Ref:4062723) | #458 | ||
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But Max? What did he say what was distacefull and over the top? To me it was a racing incident. Having said that i found the podium interview/reaction from Hamilton surprising to say the least. And can understand why Max felt as he posted on insta. |
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22 Jul 2021, 17:23 (Ref:4062725) | #459 | ||
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On this occasion, Max's comments may not have been as distasteful as Horner / Marko. But I think it is the reference to being 'dangerous' and 'unsportsmanlike' that chimes with his team's comments.
'The penalty given does not help us and doesn't do justice to the dangerous move Lewis made on track. Watching the celebrations while still in hospital is disrespectful and unsportsmanlike behaviour but we move on.' The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement. When diving up the inside of Stroll in 2020, leading to contact and Stroll spinning out: "What a retard. I have damage. What a mongol. I swear." When receiving a penalty in 2017 for track infringements, he referred to an FIA steward as a "mongol". When discussing a 'physical spat' with Ocon in 2018, called Ocon a "pussy" in the press conference. On none of these occasions did the team take any action to (publicly) reprimand or condemn the comments (that I am aware of). Apologies if this has dragged on and gone off topic, but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team? I wonder if this is part of what is in Toto's mind when he says - 'Nevertheless, the language that was used, and making it so personal, was a level that we have not seen in this sport before. I understand the emotions of his father, I'd probably do the same, but I'd use different language. I think controversy and polarisation are OK in sport, but when you attack someone personally, you've gone too far' Last edited by crmalcolm; 22 Jul 2021 at 17:33. |
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22 Jul 2021, 18:00 (Ref:4062728) | #460 | |||
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He clearly has matured and as far as I can see from afar conducts himself well. However, he still has a lot to learn. In this case even if he was 100% entitled to the corner and Hamilton 100% wrong, he should still have let Hamilton past. If it was a banzai move then the stewards would deal with it. If not, there would have been plenty of opportunity to regain the lead. And even if that didn't happen, the worst outcome would have been a second place and a small points loss. You don't need to win every corner of every race to become World Champion. Hamilton knows that, but Verstappen doesn't yet. It would be much more helpful to him to have Horner helping him realise this rather than going to war and adding fuel to a media fire that was going to burn hot enough anyway. Last edited by Anyopenroad; 22 Jul 2021 at 18:15. |
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22 Jul 2021, 20:55 (Ref:4062754) | #461 | |
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I find it interesting that everyone... Drivers, team owners and fans all have strong opinions on this. And everyone... is calling each other out regarding the validity of their positions and appropriate level of vitriol to apply. Am I alone in seeing the irony in all of this?
TL;DR "I am enraged that someone else is enraged". Richard |
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22 Jul 2021, 21:07 (Ref:4062757) | #462 | ||
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Not here though really. I think there has generally been quite a bit of concensus here about this being a 'racing incident'. I think the majority of the rage has come from those who resort to those parts of social media where the possession of a conscience and the ability to discuss an issue rationally are completely unnecessary attributes....
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96 days... |
22 Jul 2021, 22:07 (Ref:4062764) | #463 | ||
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Having been offline for a few days and now just catching up with this thread I'm surprised nobody else (I think) has mentioned the inconsistency in the penalties handed out by the stewards to Hamilton and Russell. Russell was penalised for a minor contact with Sainz by losing three positions in the race. Hamilton for a more serious contact (the actual initial contact, not the resulting crash) with MV received a measly 10 seconds. Surely consistency in imposing penalties should have resulted in LH being demoted to fourth place.
Do we know who the stewards/driver consultant were on the day? I actually believe that the contact was a 'racing incident', as was Russell's, but if you give someone the power to penalise others (stewards) they are going to use and probably abuse,that power. |
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22 Jul 2021, 22:14 (Ref:4062765) | #464 | |
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The stewards can only apply the rules, not make up new ones as they go!
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22 Jul 2021, 23:52 (Ref:4062770) | #465 | |||
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If they had applied the minimum 5sec - he would have been dropped 4 places on the grid. 10sec and he would have dropped 8 places. So as it stands, a 3 place penalty was less than a time penalty. The stewards report for Russell's incident reads: 'The Stewards note that breaches of the regulations of this sort in a race normally result in time penalties, which are scaled based on normal Grand Prix race lengths. Both because of the shorter length of Sprint Qualifying and because it is used to establish the grid for the race, the Stewards feel that grid position penalties, as imposed here, are more appropriate.' |
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22 Jul 2021, 23:57 (Ref:4062771) | #466 | ||
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22 Jul 2021, 23:57 (Ref:4062772) | #467 | |||
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I agree and I was asking only for consistency, not new rules. In fact, Mr Malcolm's quote (in the post following your post) from the stewards re Russell's penalty seems to me as if they are making new rules. |
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22 Jul 2021, 23:58 (Ref:4062774) | #468 | ||
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23 Jul 2021, 00:46 (Ref:4062785) | #469 | |||
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Your anti-Horner/Marko/Red Bull agenda in this thread is getting a bit out of hand now. |
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23 Jul 2021, 04:00 (Ref:4062795) | #470 | ||
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Did Mclaren reprimand Lewis after he jokingly accused the stewards of being bias against him "because he was black" in 2011? I would hope not, but your post suggests that they should have. Now, I do not condone any of the some of disablist language Max (and others) have used in the past but I'm not sure how it connects with what you are implying in the second half of your post. As far as I can see the only publically personal remark Max has made is to call Hamilton 'unsporting' and 'disrespectful'. As I said a few posts ago, Toto and Horner are playing 'the game'. Horner has arguably shown weakness by trying to back up his driver so passionately and Toto's deadpan put downs are just a distraction away from the fact that his driver was seen as fault for the incident. |
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23 Jul 2021, 04:10 (Ref:4062796) | #471 | ||
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Did Mclaren reprimand Lewis after he jokingly accused the stewards of being bias against him "because he was black" in 2011? I would hope not, but your post suggests that they should have. Now, I do not condone any of the disablist/racial slur language Max (and others) have used in the past but I'm not sure how it connects with what you are implying in the second half of your post. As far as I can see the only publically personal remark Max has made in relation to this incident is to call Hamilton 'unsporting' and 'disrespectful'. As I said a few posts ago, Toto and Horner are playing 'the game'. Horner has arguably shown weakness by trying to back up his driver so passionately and Toto's deadpan put downs are just a distraction away from the fact that his driver was seen as fault for the incident. Last edited by Beau2; 23 Jul 2021 at 04:36. |
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23 Jul 2021, 05:30 (Ref:4062801) | #472 | ||
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You have a long reply with a lot of stuff from the past, but nothing on why it is distasteful. But still start your story by it is distasteful, just not as distasteful as markos/horner. |
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23 Jul 2021, 05:40 (Ref:4062802) | #473 | |||
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But the internet does demand outrage. Could very easily find 100s of examples of drivers in the spur of the moment on team radio yelling "Is he trying to kill us??"... Even Mick Schumacher did it in Baku when Mazepin blocked. Does that mean Mick is also the devil incarnate now for his nasty personal attack on Nikita? |
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23 Jul 2021, 06:09 (Ref:4062803) | #474 | ||
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You know perfectly well that there was no such inference, subtle or otherwise. The point made - with which I agree - was that the reaction to this in an age of polarised outrage was likely to be fierce enough without Horner stoking the flames. A senior team Principal should be acting with more thought, no matter what the emotions of the moment. Horner called down a firestorm on Hamilton and while he is not responsible for those individuals who chose to add racist abuse to their outrage, it was entirely predictable and another reason why he should have turned down the rhetoric several notches.
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23 Jul 2021, 06:57 (Ref:4062806) | #475 | |||
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"but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team?" |
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