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Old 22 Jul 2021, 13:37 (Ref:4062681)   #451
Beau2
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Originally Posted by ascarracinguk View Post
I respectfully disagree.

Its one thing to complain/ ask the FIA to check the legality of a car....Red Bull and others are as guilty of doing that to the Mercedes car in the past, but its an entirely different thing to accuse another driver of trying to kill/ injure one of yours, calling someoene disrespectful etc etc etc.

The rhetoric from Horner, Marko, Max during and after the race was quite distastful and over the top, especially given the amount of incidents both red bull drivers have been involved in over the last few years.

I didnt hear other team managers make such accusations about Max in Portugual last year for instance (both Strolls and Perez incident on the Sunday)
I haven't seen a single comment from the Red Bull camp that accuses Lewis of trying to kill/injure Max. Yes, some passionate rhetoric saying that the move was desperate, silly and that the penalty should have been stronger or that the celebrations were distasteful.

Respectfully, the Portugal 2020 incidents were similar in contact but very different in consequences. From memory they were much slower speed, no-one ended up in the wall and each car continued. The stewards don't have to regard consequences from an incident but team managers certainly do have to consider them. This explains but doesn't excuse some of the Red Bull rhetoric.

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Old 22 Jul 2021, 14:07 (Ref:4062684)   #452
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I haven't seen a single comment from the Red Bull camp that accuses Lewis of trying to kill/injure Max. Yes, some passionate rhetoric saying that the move was desperate, silly and that the penalty should have been stronger or that the celebrations were distasteful.
i dont think he explicitly said that either but he was heavily leaning towards suggesting that this was the obvious conclusion.

on one hand i can accept that Horner is just doing his job and being a passionate advocate for his drivers (part of me likes this about him as a team leader) but on the other hand, he is a smart person and must be aware that his comments also have consequences and it doesnt help that he feed the sensationalists desire of the media and some online communities.

he shouldn't be escalating imo. he shouldn't be throwing fuel on the fire...if for no other reason then it might be his driver/his team which ultimately gets burned by this narrative.

from an optics point of view, what room has he left himself the next time Max or Perez have an incident with another driver?

my guess, he will walk this back next race weekend.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 14:18 (Ref:4062686)   #453
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Originally Posted by Beau2 View Post
I haven't seen a single comment from the Red Bull camp that accuses Lewis of trying to kill/injure Max. Yes, some passionate rhetoric saying that the move was desperate, silly and that the penalty should have been stronger or that the celebrations were distasteful.
Maybe not directly, but they have allowed that implication to be made.

Helmut Marko - 'You can’t hit your opponent on the rear wheel in one of the fastest corners, the lightest touch has fatal consequences. So an irresponsible action.'
'I don’t know what the maximum penalty would be, but such dangerous and reckless behaviour should be punished with a suspension or something. If a competitor massively touches our rear wheel with his front wheel, then that’s no longer a racing accident in the fastest corner of the track – that is negligent-to-dangerous behaviour.'

Asked if Hamilton’s move on Verstappen left his star man’s life in danger, a furious Horner replied: “Of course. His actions have put in jeopardy another driver’s safety and for me that is unacceptable. [...] He started wheel-banging with Max and then to stick a wheel up the inside at Copse Corner, one of the fastest in this championship, pretty much flat-out at 180mph, there’s only ever likely to be one consequence of that.[...] We were very lucky someone wasn’t seriously injured."
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 15:00 (Ref:4062695)   #454
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Horner had plenty to say.

"I hope he can sleep at night"

Celebrations while a driver is in hospital etc

Hollow celebrations.

Dangerous and reckless behavior.


Plus the rumblings from Marko about Hamilton needing banning, trying to get him disqualified during the race and appointing a lawyer to look into it after the race.


I actually thought that I would not mind if someone else won the WDC for a change, but for me it's hard to like this Red Bull lot.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 15:05 (Ref:4062699)   #455
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He started wheel-banging with Max....

Ah, Lewis started that, did he? Must watch it again......
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 16:03 (Ref:4062713)   #456
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As I have mentioned elsewhere (and please accept my apologies if it is earlier in this thread) we know only too well how horrible Red Bull when they think that something or someone has prevented them from winning something. Poor Renault had to put up with this type of thing for way too long...
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 16:40 (Ref:4062719)   #457
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Another review of the accident, penalty and issues arising....

Who's to Blame? Hamilton vs Verstappen: Chaos at Silverstone

https://youtu.be/enVOLoPzfrE
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 16:59 (Ref:4062723)   #458
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Originally Posted by ascarracinguk View Post
I respectfully disagree.

...

The rhetoric from Horner, Marko, Max during and after the race was quite distastful and over the top, especially given the amount of incidents both red bull drivers have been involved in over the last few years.
I get Marko and Horner. No offense to both but Marko always seems to come with ridiculous hot takes, while Horner looks like that minister of information from the Saddam era, having no issues change stories to something that better fits his needs even though everyone knows its BS.

But Max? What did he say what was distacefull and over the top?

To me it was a racing incident. Having said that i found the podium interview/reaction from Hamilton surprising to say the least. And can understand why Max felt as he posted on insta.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 17:23 (Ref:4062725)   #459
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But Max? What did he say what was distacefull and over the top?
On this occasion, Max's comments may not have been as distasteful as Horner / Marko. But I think it is the reference to being 'dangerous' and 'unsportsmanlike' that chimes with his team's comments.

'The penalty given does not help us and doesn't do justice to the dangerous move Lewis made on track. Watching the celebrations while still in hospital is disrespectful and unsportsmanlike behaviour but we move on.'

The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement.

When diving up the inside of Stroll in 2020, leading to contact and Stroll spinning out: "What a retard. I have damage. What a mongol. I swear."
When receiving a penalty in 2017 for track infringements, he referred to an FIA steward as a "mongol".
When discussing a 'physical spat' with Ocon in 2018, called Ocon a "pussy" in the press conference.

On none of these occasions did the team take any action to (publicly) reprimand or condemn the comments (that I am aware of).

Apologies if this has dragged on and gone off topic, but when drivers have suffered racist abuse regarding what has happened, you can't but wonder if the 'tolerance' shown by Red Bull to their star driver when it comes to their language indicates an underlying issue within the team? I wonder if this is part of what is in Toto's mind when he says - 'Nevertheless, the language that was used, and making it so personal, was a level that we have not seen in this sport before. I understand the emotions of his father, I'd probably do the same, but I'd use different language. I think controversy and polarisation are OK in sport, but when you attack someone personally, you've gone too far'

Last edited by crmalcolm; 22 Jul 2021 at 17:33.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 18:00 (Ref:4062728)   #460
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The problem I see is that it continues to fuel the attitude within the team that their driver(s) can do no wrong, and have a sense of entitlement.
I agree with this. Verstappen came into F1 as a 17-year old - a child, basically. He is still only 23. Such prodigious talent in a very young man needed to be nurtured and protected. I don't think he got that from Red Bull (or his father) because they were terrified of losing their greatest asset. The lack of serious consequences for those outbursts and the apparent lack of even a quiet calming word served Verstappen poorly.

He clearly has matured and as far as I can see from afar conducts himself well. However, he still has a lot to learn. In this case even if he was 100% entitled to the corner and Hamilton 100% wrong, he should still have let Hamilton past. If it was a banzai move then the stewards would deal with it. If not, there would have been plenty of opportunity to regain the lead. And even if that didn't happen, the worst outcome would have been a second place and a small points loss.

You don't need to win every corner of every race to become World Champion. Hamilton knows that, but Verstappen doesn't yet. It would be much more helpful to him to have Horner helping him realise this rather than going to war and adding fuel to a media fire that was going to burn hot enough anyway.

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Old 22 Jul 2021, 20:55 (Ref:4062754)   #461
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I find it interesting that everyone... Drivers, team owners and fans all have strong opinions on this. And everyone... is calling each other out regarding the validity of their positions and appropriate level of vitriol to apply. Am I alone in seeing the irony in all of this?

TL;DR "I am enraged that someone else is enraged".

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Old 22 Jul 2021, 21:07 (Ref:4062757)   #462
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Not here though really. I think there has generally been quite a bit of concensus here about this being a 'racing incident'. I think the majority of the rage has come from those who resort to those parts of social media where the possession of a conscience and the ability to discuss an issue rationally are completely unnecessary attributes....
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 22:07 (Ref:4062764)   #463
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Having been offline for a few days and now just catching up with this thread I'm surprised nobody else (I think) has mentioned the inconsistency in the penalties handed out by the stewards to Hamilton and Russell. Russell was penalised for a minor contact with Sainz by losing three positions in the race. Hamilton for a more serious contact (the actual initial contact, not the resulting crash) with MV received a measly 10 seconds. Surely consistency in imposing penalties should have resulted in LH being demoted to fourth place.


Do we know who the stewards/driver consultant were on the day?


I actually believe that the contact was a 'racing incident', as was Russell's, but if you give someone the power to penalise others (stewards) they are going to use and probably abuse,that power.
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 22:14 (Ref:4062765)   #464
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Old 22 Jul 2021, 23:52 (Ref:4062770)   #465
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Having been offline for a few days and now just catching up with this thread I'm surprised nobody else (I think) has mentioned the inconsistency in the penalties handed out by the stewards to Hamilton and Russell. Russell was penalised for a minor contact with Sainz by losing three positions in the race. Hamilton for a more serious contact (the actual initial contact, not the resulting crash) with MV received a measly 10 seconds. Surely consistency in imposing penalties should have resulted in LH being demoted to fourth place.
IIRC, the stewards reviewed Russell's incident after the sprint, at which time they had a range of penalties available.

If they had applied the minimum 5sec - he would have been dropped 4 places on the grid. 10sec and he would have dropped 8 places. So as it stands, a 3 place penalty was less than a time penalty.
The stewards report for Russell's incident reads:

'The Stewards note that breaches of the regulations of this sort in a race normally result in time penalties, which are scaled based on normal Grand Prix race lengths. Both because of the shorter length of Sprint Qualifying and because it is used to establish the grid for the race, the Stewards feel that grid position penalties, as imposed here, are more appropriate.'
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