Flaggies - Be thankful we don't do it like the Aussie V8's

[chrisjatsea]

Having just read this thread in the NZ & Aussie touring car section

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96714
( you need to read down to racetart's post..)

I think we can all be glad we don't have the same stupid system in place here yet..... (I'm sure some bright spark will come up with it soon...)

Can anyone foresee us having to wait for race control to tell us to blue flag at major events (or is it happening already somewhere??)

By the way the racing was awesome for this event as the rain did it's best to make it "interesting" (Guess who's in Australia at the moment???)

Comments please guys and gals..........

[PVDA]

Where do I start, I think I covered it pretty well in my post this morning in the thread;

Originally Posted by PVDA

I notice someone has written to Motorsport eNews stating that Winton shouldn't have a V8 round with such incompetent officials working there which considering the same trackside flaggies work at the Sandown 500, Pi Grand finale & F1 GP is a bit rich.

Darren Short of Sydney NSW, you should hang your head in shame for making such an uninformed comment & Motorsport News can join him for not bothering to put a footnote on the letter stating the Blue Flag use is out of the Flaggies control during V8 races.........

The letter in question can be found on the bottom of Page 20 under the heading Grey skies and blue flags at this URL http://enews.mnews.com.au/

I've had a few calls & e-mails thanking me for sinking the boots in on the Flaggies behalf.

The Aussie V8 series is getting more and more like F1 every day and the quicker we lose the F1 round the better Australian racing will be.

[garybirch]

A few points:

1. Flaggies are human. We sometimes get it wrong. Obviously those criticising us are perfect!
2. The blue flag is not an instruction to tell a driver to move over, it is an information flag to tell him that he has a faster car approaching him.
3. Sometimes you can tell that a driver knows there's a faster car behind him, such as him pulling off the racing line, pointing, or you can see him looking in his mirrors, so I might not wave the flag at him.
4. Here in UK, I have heard Race Control 'inform' flaggies that the leader is about to lap someone, so get ready on the blue flags.

[blackx]

Hasnt race control been issuing instructions to blue flag in F1 for a while

[Hepatic]

until last year when they allowed us to make own judgements, yes. I did hear the comments of one driver stating he was unhappy with blueing, but lets be fair cars were everywhere in that race when it rained, how on earth anyone could keep track of who was where i don't know.

[PVDA]

At Winton the Flaggies are also the communicator at each post and the person in Race Control keeps them informed of who is down a lap or more so it's not that hard, the trouble is they were told at their morning briefing on Saturday & Sunday not to Blue unless told to by RC. By RC I mean V8 Race Director and not the radio operator up there who is just the meat in the sandwich.

I was the Flaggie RC radio person at Winton prior to the current guy taking over the job and it's not that hard to keep the guys in the bunkers informed of what's going on with the modern timing screens available but very hard for them to work with their hands tied behind their back most of the time.

[chrisjatsea]

So do you believe that a combination of the two is the best system?? Have the RC Radio, but with the discretion of the Marshal on post.... is that how it runs with your state level meets at present?

[PVDA]

State level races are usually short enough not to have too much lapping but so long as the Flag Marshals are kept informed of who is where I cant see a problem letting them decide for themselves.

After all a Blue Flag is an advisory signal not an order to get out of the way so the driver can choose to ignore the signal if he/she wishes.

The fact that at Winton the Flaggies are also on the radio is a bonus but this isn't the case at other events/tracks so you have the problem of some club member wearing the radio possibly for the first time trying to tell a Flaggie something important and losing information in the translation.

[blueflagger]

Originally Posted by blackx

Hasnt race control been issuing instructions to blue flag in F1 for a while

They tried it first at the inagural USGP at Indy with poor results. There was tremendous lag time and we were being told to get ready for passes that had already taken place.

They have improved the system response time and we are now told where the leader is in relation to the next passee, but we use our own judgement on when to throw the flag. I understand that each venue handles it in a manner that seems to work best for that venue.

[Stoowert]

I've always understood that if an instruction comes from Race Control to blue a driver it becomes an order. IE ignore 3 blues and you get a drive-through penalty. This seems to be the order of the day for GPs (I don't do GPs, more fun at CCWS or Le Mans, thank you very much)

I could be wrong. God knows, I've been wrong in the past...

[blueflagger]

For most US races, we just report when the driver is ignoring the flag and causing problems. Once reported, it's up to race control to decide what to do about it. Sometimes the driver is black flagged and lectured. What is becoming more frequent is the team is told to radio the driver with "quit blocking or the stewards are going to punish you."

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by chrisjatsea

Having just read this thread in the NZ & Aussie touring car section

Can anyone foresee us having to wait for race control to tell us to blue flag at major events (or is it happening already somewhere??)

Comments please guys and gals..........

Chris,
This did happen at the A1GP meeting at Brands Hatch.
not something I agree wtih because it makes you think that race control thinks the flag marshals are incompetent, but I'm sure the order comes from higher up than race control.

[Woolley]

The problem, from an F1 point of view, is that they happily go to places where there is no marshalling experience, and so they have to issue instructions. At which point they have to treat us as for the lowest common denominator (which explains the other rubbish FIA flag signals because frankly a 4-year old could flag adequately under those rules). The usual lack of appreciation for what a good marshalling team is capable of.

The problem as far as V8s is concerned, is that it's run by someone who thinks he's Bernie, and so tries the same thing. Alledgedly, their software gives them so much accurate information that they can do the job better from Race Control. Except that, as Winton proved, they can't. Leaders trying to battle through a ruck of tail-enders... By the time RC could explain who they want flagging where, it's too late, and the peeps on post could have done better by instinct.

We'll only get anywhere when people like Ecclestone and Cochrane (or a reliable representative) join us on the posts and realise that most of us are at least as good at what we do as they are at what they do.

Don't think it's going to happen, somehow.

[blueflagger]

Poor flagging from a former eastern bloc country and one or two other experiences is exactly why F1 handed blues over to race control. They really do recognize that flagging skills vary, especially in places that don't get a lot of racing. It took a while for F1 to work out the kinks and it's still nowhere near perfect. At least the F1 crew recognize it's imperfections.

[Woolley]

Not to mention Monaco... Watch recordings of that battle when Mansell spent 10 laps hard up Senna's gearbox. Blue flags all over the place. I suspected that Senna knew Mansell was there, and it wasn't a lapping manoeuvre either!

I just think it's a shame that they look at it and think 'Let's take it under the wing of race control', rather than 'Those guys do it much better, we should make note of that skill and experience and try to make the most of it.'

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by blueflagger

Poor flagging from a former eastern bloc country and one or two other experiences is exactly why F1 handed blues over to race control. They really do recognize that flagging skills vary, especially in places that don't get a lot of racing. It took a while for F1 to work out the kinks and it's still nowhere near perfect. At least the F1 crew recognize it's imperfections.

Which don't really addrress the problem....if they can't come up with a reliable accreditation system for officials...amid all the other myriad of rubbish rules they produce...then they should not be in the business.

The problem is usually that there is nothing to distinguish a well experienced, knowledgeable, reliable official when lumped into together with a other time-servers, newbies and odds and sods....with no one taking charge or responsibility

[Clive]

Flagging in F1 will soon be a thing of the past as soon as the lights become reliable

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Clive

Flagging in F1 will soon be a thing of the past as soon as the lights become reliable

They already have reliable lights in the aircraft industry and on runways etc its getting something with a near human-like brain to work out all the perturbations for when to switch them on (erghh and off) Remote operation would only work with a myriad of sensors like camers etc

[BTW I hope you one day don't live to regret that statement......a real-live Marshals intervention when you are in a world of bother can sometimes be a comfort ]

[blueflagger]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

The problem is usually that there is nothing to distinguish a well experienced, knowledgeable, reliable official when lumped into together with a other time-servers, newbies and odds and sods....with no one taking charge or responsibility

Agreed. If the local officials aren't using their knowledge and discretion when sorting applications, shame on them. But if the talent pool is shallow to begin with, they've got a major problem.

I'm afraid Clive is right; we will probably see racing go to lights in the cockpit instead of blue flagging by humans.

[gpracing27]

Hi Folks,

Not wanting to start a riot but having marshalled in the UK for a number of years and now having moved to NZ (I had also lived here in the late 90's) I have seen good blue flagging and bad blue flagging on both sides of the world. One particular incident was a blue flag marshal flagging the pack on the first lap of an international race and felt they were right.

The situation described is used at all levels of meeting here in NZ, and far from being aimed at make flag marshals feel incompetent, it actually makes flagging consistent for all drivers at all levels, and the marshal on a post stil has the decretion to wave a blue without direction from RC but they may be asked to justify why.

While it was hard to get used to it is now part of the meeting.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by gpracing27

and the marshal on a post stil has the decretion to wave a blue without direction from RC but they may be asked to justify why.

Trouble is the Flaggies discreation has been removed during V8 events hence the fuss being generated on this & the Aussie V8 forum on 10/10ths.

[blueflagger]

I can understand the fuss.

You could take action as a group. Protest. All refuse to pick up the blue flag. All refuse to put on the headphones. Or formally request that the person who came up with this rule come out and try to blue by race control directions. Tell him (or her) that if he won't do it, neither will you.

There's power in numbers, use it. If no one speaks up to the series honchos, how do they know you have a real beef with their flagging rules?

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by blueflagger

If no one speaks up to the series honchos, how do they know you have a real beef with their flagging rules?

The problem is we've been complaining long and loud since the FIA rules were adopted down here.

The problem is so many people look at the F1 GP and think every event, including the V8 series, should be run the same, these same people hold senior positions within the F1 GP structure and so long as we have the F1 GP in this country and CAMS is an FIA ASN (or whatever it's called) we will suffer this problem.

We keep being told CAMS is a democracy but when proposals work their way up the system from the grass roots level they get to the top and seem to fall off a certain desk and into the waste paper bin never to see the light of day again.

And CAMS wonders why AASA is doing so well ! !

[blueflagger]

Do more than complain then. Refuse to work the series - en masse. And be sure they know the reason why.

Is it tough to organize? Yes. Will it get their attention? You bet.

[CombeMarshal]

Can I bring up Green Flags????!!!!!

Have seen some bad green flagging recently, probably lack of training, I keep seeing it bought in at the same time as the Yellow, when it should be bought in as the last car that see the yellow passes it!

Never really heard that covered on a training day, might have to bring that up....

carry on now!