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Old 4 Apr 2017, 18:16 (Ref:3723782)   #2236
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I am a bit worried about the push for power without that being a solution for some other goal (i.e. quality of racing). I generally dislike the "we just need them to be faster" sentiment.
Agreed.


Also as you say anything that reduces efficiency increases the amount of fuel weight and/or lift and coasting needed in a non refuel scenario. Which is the opposite of what we need.

If the choice would be between:

a) more noise and lower cost through a removal of the MGU-H, but more fuel weight and lift and coasting due to reduced fuel efficiency

b) the current noise levels, but reduced cost through a standardized MGU-H.


my personal preference would be b). But I could fully accept option a) as a good option.


Personally I find it extremely low tech and inefficient to push these extremely draggy cars down the straights. If we wanna reduce the fuel weight having flexible aero would be a good thing to explore when looking at future regulations to both reduce fuel weight and lift and coasting, reduce laptimes and give the aero guys something to do when aero is more simplified/made less fragile in the future in order to let cars follow each other.
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Old 4 Apr 2017, 20:05 (Ref:3723804)   #2237
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Some good points being made in the latter parts of this thread.

I keep reading them and seeing three worlds described:

1. Not dissimilar to what went before
2. Not dissimilar to what we have now
3. Radically different from anything that's gone before

If F1 is to keep hold of the special place it's clinging onto as the 'pinnacle' of motorsport, option 3 is the only feasible way forward. Some massive step similar to the appearance of the German aero-engined cars in the 30s, or stressed member engines in the 60s, or ground effect aero, or the acceptance of massively overboosted turbo motors. We haven't had a step change like that for some years although that's partly down to regulation keeping the engineers in check.

The biggest problem for Messrs Carey and Brawn is to get option 3 in full flow before the 'competition' does, without alienating the incumbents, and without making F1 totally inaccessible to the watching public. What a balancing act that's going to be!

When I say 'competition', I mean the number of series that are growing in popularity - maybe not here, mind! - while F1's popularity wanes. Endurance racing is on the up even if it is still a small niche, electric racing is here to stay whether you/we like it or not, and then there's all the other sports and pastimes competing for attention.

We live in interesting times, that's for sure.
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Old 4 Apr 2017, 20:42 (Ref:3723808)   #2238
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High efficiency engines and current concepts that allow for that (such as TJI) will likely remain in place because the flip side of low consumption via high efficiency is higher power for a lesser amount of fuel used and stored on the car. They can't unlearn what they have learned with respect to increased thermal efficiency. There is the potential for something like TJI to be banned however. Even if by 2021, it should be well understood within F1, but the question is will it just be an expensive item that everyone has, but is hidden away from the viewer? And will we see TJI in production road cars or will manufactures spend development resources elsewhere (electrics). So all of this is arguments to ban TJI. An interesting, complex and expensive innovation for a dying technology.
when it comes to road relevance im a bit dumbfounded that they do not talk more about the gains they have made in thermal efficiency in the current generation of engines and why is this a path they would be willing to walk away from with the next generation of f1 engines.

i may be off base with this, but if this is something they can bring to road cars then that is something that could have a truly transfromative effect on modern society via a massive decrease in consumption which could in effect kill off demand for electric or at the least stave off conversion towards it for a generation or two. as Greem alludes too, wouldnt this be a similar massive step forward?

i can only suspect that the costs of filtering this tech down is far far too expensive (or even too late in the game) and ultimately its cheaper for road car companies to move towards cheaper hybrid solutions and/or all electric.

but if thats the case why are they even bothering with an ICE aspect at all?

Last edited by chillibowl; 4 Apr 2017 at 20:47.
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Old 4 Apr 2017, 21:50 (Ref:3723817)   #2239
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If F1 is to keep hold of the special place it's clinging onto as the 'pinnacle' of motorsport
Sorry for a very selective quote, but it did trigger a thought. And this is a topic well travelled here on this forum. It boils down to "What is F1?" Things like high technology, best racing, best drivers, is it sport, show or both, etc. all get tossed around.

While the current power unit spec results in quite high tech to be competitive, the next spec may not be that way. The same goes for the chassis. It used to be that something like F1 was the place you saw technology born that eventually shows up in road cars. Today road cars have technology that is not allowed in F1.

I think F1 might be about to switch off the gold standard. We have been sneaking up on this for a long time. It will no longer be the "pinnacle" by objective measure, but rather will be an "artificial pinnacle" (such as "paper money"). It will be the top (have value) because we say it is the top (because we treat it as if it has value). Accepting that definition would allow it to continue to pull the best drivers, sponsorship money, etc. even if objectively it is not the best it could be (at least on the technical side of things). And this problem applies to other "top level" series as well. The realities and economics apply to them as well. The only exception might be Formula E, but it's too early to say and the spec nature of that currently excludes it from being an objective pinnacle IMHO.

So as much as I would personally like it, I just don't see your option #3 happening in the near future.

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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
when it comes to road relevance im a bit dumbfounded that they do not talk more about the gains they have made in thermal efficiency in the current generation of engines and why is this a path they would be willing to walk away from with the next generation of f1 engines.
As I mention on the prior page, I think they will walk away from "some" of it for the sake of improving the show and reducing cost. Otherwise, I expect they are very proud of the technological accomplishments with respect to the efficiency gains. I think at this point it is sort of "Been there, done that". Mercedes won that battle.

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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
i may be off base with this, but if this is something they can bring to road cars then that is something that could have a truly transfromative effect on modern society via a massive decrease in consumption which could in effect kill off demand for electric or at the least stave off conversion towards it for a generation or two. as Greem alludes too, wouldnt this be a similar massive step forward?

i can only suspect that the costs of filtering this tech down is far far too expensive (or even too late in the game) and ultimately its cheaper for road car companies to move towards cheaper hybrid solutions and/or all electric.

but if thats the case why are they even bothering with an ICE aspect at all?
Time will tell but my current thinking is along the lines you say above about "too late in the game". Which is why I made the comment about improvements to a dying technology. I am not an economist, but I believe in the concept that something such as fossil fuels will NEVER reach its development end before it is replaced. There will always be some room left for improvements, but they will be harder and harder to achieve. That when you start to experience diminishing returns, that changes the economics enough that the "next thing" starts to become economical. So electric cars today is expensive but we are at that point where the cost of overcoming the detrimental impacts of fossil fuels (environmental concerns being the largest and a finite supply being the other) is driving the future. The "up and to the right" curve of fossil fuels is crossing (or about to cross) the "down and to the right" curve of renewable energy.

An example of diminishing returns might be TJI technology. It is my understanding that TJI is such a complex technology that it may never show up in road cars. That the cost side may never drop low enough to make it work in mass produced and lower end cars to make it worth further development. Who wants to dump cash into perfecting a technology that may have a very short lifespan? I may be wrong about TJI (and I expect Mahle would say I am wrong given they clearly developed it with the idea of selling it on a larger scale). But if it is not TJI, it will be something else that is maybe yet to be invented.

The quantity of road relevant ICE (and chassis) development that may come out of F1 in the future is likely very slim. Of course all of this depends upon when the tipping point (that intersection of curves) between fossil fuel and renewable energy happens. And we are likely to only really know for sure "when" it happens after it has passed, in the rear view mirror and no longer debatable. I fully expect it to be within my lifetime and likely within the next 20 years (if not much sooner).

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Old 4 Apr 2017, 22:17 (Ref:3723819)   #2240
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well explained Richard!
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Old 4 Apr 2017, 22:19 (Ref:3723820)   #2241
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I think F1 might be about to switch off the gold standard.
TBH, I think that's happened already. The world is comfortably moving away from noisy, polluting, internal combustion engines with limited efficiency to... well, somewhere else.

It'll take some time - two or three generations, maybe? - but when I look at my immediate family, running back from myself I only have two direct ancestors (my dad and grandad) before I reach a point where the car *did not exist*. I appreciate that I'm in my late 40s and my grandad was fairly old by the standards of the 1940s when my dad was born, but still... three generations.

In three more generations, with the incessant acceleration of technological development, who knows where we'll be?

If the Liberty folks have their eyes on the ball, they need to be thinking two generations out at the very least. This type of investment is a long game, or it fails.
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Old 4 Apr 2017, 23:05 (Ref:3723827)   #2242
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TJI (Turbulent Jet Ignition) quick summary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHJWPFoE5uY

I see no reason TJI would not be adopted in road cars, all the injectors and electronic controls necessary are already available and as we see Mercedes have been running it since the inception of the "hybrid" era.
Looks like they have been having one over on the rest of the field, the performance gain is in the ICE and NOT in the eye wateringly complex and expensive hybrid recovery systems!
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Old 4 Apr 2017, 23:25 (Ref:3723828)   #2243
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If the Liberty folks have their eyes on the ball, they need to be thinking two generations out at the very least. This type of investment is a long game, or it fails.
I think they do, which to hardened, loyal fans such as us, will mean they will do terrible things to our sport. Mr E will turn in his grave (surely he's got a nice plot already put aside.)
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Old 5 Apr 2017, 02:47 (Ref:3723858)   #2244
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Looks like they have been having one over on the rest of the field, the performance gain is in the ICE and NOT in the eye wateringly complex and expensive hybrid recovery systems!
Do you think this is because the hybrid recovery system is too tightly controlled by FIA? If the teams were allowed more freedom, (such as in WEC) would teams be able to achieve performance gains in these other areas?
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Old 5 Apr 2017, 04:20 (Ref:3723872)   #2245
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Do you think this is because the hybrid recovery system is too tightly controlled by FIA? If the teams were allowed more freedom, (such as in WEC) would teams be able to achieve performance gains in these other areas?
Pretty much dsg, the maximum power has been set, so the only real development avenue is to make it lighter, and then the axle weights are set.
I think that the whole system was just inserted into F1 as a marketing gimmick, and to exclude outside suppliers like Cosworth, WEC has them so we must too, the WEC version is a way better method of introducing KERS type systems.

Knighty also had a good point in one of his posts that trying to recover energy from a turbo is just daft.
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Old 5 Apr 2017, 07:34 (Ref:3723894)   #2246
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Here is a nice article why it will be difficult to overtake and why we will see some dull racing:
https://drivetribe.com/p/auZby7jDQhu...S1q_tlPfldCSgQ

IMO, going with higher downforce and higher cornering speed this is inevitable. In the WEC they always wan't to rob prototypes of cornering speed, because of GTE traffic, this IMO has made racing more interesting.
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Old 16 Apr 2017, 13:53 (Ref:3726969)   #2247
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'T' wings to be banned before next race? Hope so.
They're becoming ridiculously big and ugly. The one on the McLarens reminds me of an radar detector.
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Old 16 Apr 2017, 15:17 (Ref:3727034)   #2248
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'T' wings to be banned before next race? Hope so.
They're becoming ridiculously big and ugly. The one on the McLarens reminds me of an radar detector.
Maybe it is? Otherwise, it doesn't look like RBR are running a T-Wing today.
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Old 16 Apr 2017, 15:24 (Ref:3727041)   #2249
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That's Verstappen out with brake failure, very unexpected.
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Old 16 Apr 2017, 15:26 (Ref:3727043)   #2250
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It's the first FCY as it looks like Sainz and Stroll came together and Vettel has got the lead, as Mercedes pit and Hamilton has a rather long pit stop.
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