How To Make the Monaco Grand Prix Interesting

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I guess it depends upon what the OP means by "Monaco Grand Prix"? Are we talking F1 or something else? If F1, then yes, we are stuck with the cars. Anything that is substantially different technically (as you suggest) means totally different technical spec and that is not F1.

If we are not talking about F1, then sure, the sky is the limit. Then to play this game, I say put them in karts.

The race is what it is from an F1 perspective.

Richard

In the current frame of reference yes F1 would mean F1 car.
But if the circuit is not appropriate for them there is no reason why an alternative car could be created for a 'special' event and labelled F1b or something equally farcical.

If the series is to run 24 Grand Prix they don't have to be the present F1 cars we have at present,

In decades long past F2 cars raced in Grand Prix and other events that are not F1 carry the title Grand Prix. There was once a national Grand Prix for Formula Ford spec cars.

If you are going to lock yourself into a box that you can't escape from there isn't a lot of chance of finding a real solution to breaking free from the present conundrum.

The WDC could include one or two events that are not run with F1 spec cars without demeaning the value of the title or the tension in the championship if the present f1 teams and drivers were the participants.

So the idea that some people have floated is not unreasonable.
Given the singular focus of people inn F1 it may be difficult to think outside the F1 regulation box but that doesn't it can't be done.

[P38 in workshop]

Let's get real chaps.There is no chance of building an alternative car for one race each year because a few dozen people on internet forums think it would make the race more interesting.Similarly,there is little chance of the race being removed from the calendar due to being an outdated anomaly,since the people who pour money in enjoy going somewhere a bit more sophisticated than a car park in the desert with a few miles of barriers and some T shirt stalls.I would be surprised if any changes went further than larger mirrors and maybe,for one race only,some more preventative measures to make wheel entanglement less likely.

[GT6]

I rearly think the race should be a stand alone race, and perhaps allow changes that are different to the F1 regulations it would still be a massive race and perhaps F! could insist all entrys enter cars, but allowing it to continue as a parade after quali is just not in f1 better interest

[morninggents]

I think indy cars raced in the F1 world championship in the 1950s.

[DaviePHD]

I was delighted the Charles to win his home race... however it's time for Monaco to go!

Whilst there was some excellent driving it was an absolute snoozefest. I generally watch F1 and if the BTCC clashes I watch the touring cars on demand later.

When it's time for Monaco I generally do the exact opposite, this year it was definitely the right choice.

It's just an event on the social calendar of the glamourpusses now, if they aren't willing to, or can't improve the circuit, F1 should drop it.

[midgetman]

Listen lads, I've had an idea....

.....why don't they build special cars for Monaco and race them up and down the hill behind the city? They could make them look like road cars and maybe run it in January when there's snow on the ground.

Probably have to change the race's name from Monaco to Monte Carlo.

Or....we could just, you know, accept that Monaco has always been a rubbish race since it was inaugurated, sit back and enjoy the marvel of highly talented young drivers controlling 1000bhp around the streets of an overcrowded city. Or if that's not exciting enough just go and do the gardening on Bank Holiday weekend. It's one race out of 24 that actually isn't pitched at internet forums, just the competitors and sponsors.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Let's get real chaps.There is no chance of building an alternative car for one race each year because a few dozen people on internet forums think it would make the race more interesting.Similarly,there is little chance of the race being removed from the calendar due to being an outdated anomaly,since the people who pour money in enjoy going somewhere a bit more sophisticated than a car park in the desert with a few miles of barriers and some T shirt stalls.I would be surprised if any changes went further than larger mirrors and maybe,for one race only,some more preventative measures to make wheel entanglement less likely.

Agree 100%. This is classic F1. We have a bad race for some reason (in this case a track that you can't pass on and effectively no need to pit after the early red flag). So now we are all about "how to fix this problem". The same applies to the 2021 Belgian GP. Lots of "we need to fix the rain problem" with all kinds of crazy ideas. FIA tested multiple iterations of tire covers with them all proving they didn't address the issue. Bad races happen. A bad race at Monaco is just an unfortunate situation because they are dull to begin with. Problem piled upon problem.

In all seriousness, you can't "fix" Monaco from an F1 perspective. It will always be hard to pass. What you might be able to do is try to address some of the causes that can be controlled. In this case it was the early red flag that nullified the need for later pitstops. The entire "two compound" rule in F1 only exists to create on-track unpredictability. It forces a pitstop and requires teams to potentially run on a tire that is less optimal for them (on the assumption that one compound suits the track/car/setup/driver than the other compound). (Edit: Oh, don't forget designed in tire degradation!) Maybe they can create a ruling that says if a red flag happens within some period of time (within the first 40% of the scheduled laps) that any compound change at that time does not count. Is that an arbitrary and manipulative rule? Absolutely, but completely in-line with the arbitrary nature of the current two compound rule and in-line with the spirit of what that rule is doing.

Frankly, I think F1 allows too much to change with the cars during red-flags. I expect originally it was "park the cars in pit lane while we sort out on track issues". Then teams were like... Can we fix damage to make the car "safe". So they said, yes, you can change like for like... Fast forward to today and they are nearly rebuilding cars, changing tires, etc. Maybe they should force them to remain on the same compound they had prior to the red-flag. If they don't have any remaining of that compound then use the prior tire. If the prior tire is damaged, switch compounds, but take a substantial time penalty. Not to mention the issue of how they reset the field and allowed Sainz to remain in third place. They could look to find better ways to reset the grid without pretending that passes didn't happen on track.

Red flags are relatively rare, but they end up being rolls of the dice that randomly reward those who get a free pitstop and screw those who may have pitted just prior to the red flag. In the case of Monaco, everyone was screwed (particularly the fans) because it gave EVERYONE a free pitstop.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Listen lads, I've had an idea....

.....why don't they build special cars for Monaco and race them up and down the hill behind the city? They could make them look like road cars and maybe run it in January when there's snow on the ground.

Probably have to change the race's name from Monaco to Monte Carlo.

I love it. It sounds so good you probably could make an entire series around that concept!

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by midgetman

…It's one race out of 24 that actually isn't pitched at internet forums, just the competitors and sponsors.

More than fair but for me, it’s not really a one off. there is an ever growing number of these sorts of street races being squeezed into places too small for the cars.

And that’s great if that’s what they want, if that’s where the fans and money are at, easier for those trying to attend live, perhaps even more sustainable in a way etc…

But surely then that’s even more of a reason to build cars better suited for that purpose no?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

More than fair but for me, it’s not really a one off. there is an ever growing number of these sorts of street races being squeezed into places too small for the cars.

And that’s great if that’s what they want, if that’s where the fans and money are at, easier for those trying to attend live, perhaps even more sustainable in a way etc…

But surely then that’s even more of a reason to build cars better suited for that purpose no?

Are cars too big and need to reduced in size? Absolutely. But how small would they have to be to make Monaco "interesting" again. As to street races needing smaller cars. I am not sure I agree. If memory serves me, Vegas and Miami don't have the issues Monaco have. Baku and Singapore has some tight spots that I think make the circuit interesting, but overall have potential for overtaking. I think all circuits would benefit from smaller lighter cars. I don't think they would "wake up" Monaco however.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Turn it into a head-to-head time trail. One starts on the start line, the other starts near the tunnel and do a flying lap head-to-head - fastest progresses to the next round knockout style. Live on-screen timings and split screen TV coverage.

The purists would hate it but it would be more interesting than what we just witnessed. Lack of overtaking would be irrelevant.

You say purists would hate it - but these 'purists' already accept Monaco being different to every other event on the calendar anyway.

'The distance of the race in Monaco shall be equal to the least number of complete laps which exceed a distance of 260km' (It's 305km everywhere else).

'abide by the podium procedure set out in Appendix 5 (except Monaco)'

[Sodemo]

https://youtu.be/w-qitCCq5Mc?feature=shared

One of my fav videos of a car round Monaco, would be nice if cars could be more like that.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Agree 100%. This is classic F1. We have a bad race for some reason (in this case a track that you can't pass on and effectively no need to pit after the early red flag). So now we are all about "how to fix this problem". The same applies to the 2021 Belgian GP. Lots of "we need to fix the rain problem" with all kinds of crazy ideas. FIA tested multiple iterations of tire covers with them all proving they didn't address the issue. Bad races happen. A bad race at Monaco is just an unfortunate situation because they are dull to begin with. Problem piled upon problem.

In all seriousness, you can't "fix" Monaco from an F1 perspective. It will always be hard to pass. What you might be able to do is try to address some of the causes that can be controlled. In this case it was the early red flag that nullified the need for later pitstops. The entire "two compound" rule in F1 only exists to create on-track unpredictability. It forces a pitstop and requires teams to potentially run on a tire that is less optimal for them (on the assumption that one compound suits the track/car/setup/driver than the other compound). (Edit: Oh, don't forget designed in tire degradation!) Maybe they can create a ruling that says if a red flag happens within some period of time (within the first 40% of the scheduled laps) that any compound change at that time does not count. Is that an arbitrary and manipulative rule? Absolutely, but completely in-line with the arbitrary nature of the current two compound rule and in-line with the spirit of what that rule is doing.

Frankly, I think F1 allows too much to change with the cars during red-flags. I expect originally it was "park the cars in pit lane while we sort out on track issues". Then teams were like... Can we fix damage to make the car "safe". So they said, yes, you can change like for like... Fast forward to today and they are nearly rebuilding cars, changing tires, etc. Maybe they should force them to remain on the same compound they had prior to the red-flag. If they don't have any remaining of that compound then use the prior tire. If the prior tire is damaged, switch compounds, but take a substantial time penalty. Not to mention the issue of how they reset the field and allowed Sainz to remain in third place. They could look to find better ways to reset the grid without pretending that passes didn't happen on track.

Red flags are relatively rare, but they end up being rolls of the dice that randomly reward those who get a free pitstop and screw those who may have pitted just prior to the red flag. In the case of Monaco, everyone was screwed (particularly the fans) because it gave EVERYONE a free pitstop.

Richard

It's not just that Monaco 2024 was a "bad race". It was a "worse race" than all the other bad Monaco GPs. As such it can be a catalyst for change, but it need to fix the last 20 years (or more) of badness and not just the 2024 badness.

I do agree with you re red flag parc ferme rules. Personally I would have a rigid "can't touch the car" rule. In the case of cars needing to change tyres for any reason, they would have to start from their pit box and mechanics couldn't touch the car until the start. So in the case of this past race:
1. Sainz would have had to start from the pits after a tyre change.
2. Ditto Zhou because he had picked up so much debris on his tyres from the crash.
3. Presumably Piastri would have driven on with his damage, just as he would have done if there had been no red flag.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

It's not just that Monaco 2024 was a "bad race". It was a "worse race" than all the other bad Monaco GPs. As such it can be a catalyst for change, but it need to fix the last 20 years (or more) of badness and not just the 2024 badness.

I do agree with you re red flag parc ferme rules. Personally I would have a rigid "can't touch the car" rule. In the case of cars needing to change tyres for any reason, they would have to start from their pit box and mechanics couldn't touch the car until the start. So in the case of this past race:
1. Sainz would have had to start from the pits after a tyre change.
2. Ditto Zhou because he had picked up so much debris on his tyres from the crash.
3. Presumably Piastri would have driven on with his damage, just as he would have done if there had been no red flag.

I think we are mostly saying the same thing. I am skeptical that there will be any specific changes to the Monaco circuit or the cars as a result of what we saw at the recent race. But I can see potential for regulation changes.

Overall, F1 has a general attitude of ensuring cars are on track. That it's a negative if fans don't see their favorite driver/team on the circuit for the entire event. For example they must have reverse gears, self starting and I think one of the many reasons for paved runoffs vs. gravel is to ensure cars can reenter the track to get back into the action vs retiring. This feeds into the red flag allowances.

Richard

[chillibowl]

don’t seeing much changing with the red flag rules for those reasons…and truthfully I do, on the whole, kind of agree with them doing these things that keep as many cars, often in their positions, in the race. People pay a lot of money to see their favourites out there.

Though for myself, I am very much buying into ‘the something must change because of this race’ side of the fence.

Although, when discussing this with my friends who are of the more casual viewer variety, they very much just thought it all looked great and very much what they expect from an F1 race. They really had no issues with the parade or lack of overtaking.

[v8supes]

So ive thought a little bit about this and ive got a left field idea.

2 x 1 hour practice sessions on the Saturday
Sunday you have a 90 minute session - 60 minute qualifying session unlimited runs with a full on soft qualifying style tyre, engines turned up to 11. Slowest 10 drop out, fastest 10 advance. Then you have a 30 minute session for the fastest 10. Unlimited runs, drivers do a 5 lap run, 1 out lap, 3 timed laps with a pit stop on one of the laps and an in lap. Fastest average time over those 5 laps wins.

You could have Monaco specific points where 20th place gets 1 point, 19th 2, 18th 3 etc. That way the 60 minute qualifying session above actually has some meaning for the slowest teams and they dont just think "whats the point and end up saving mileage on engines"

Other than that i think if you want to keep it a traditional style race then the only hope you have is to remove the wings, have tyres that last 10 laps or fit "bumper" bars to the cars and relax the penalties for contact. All of which wont happen.

Like i said in the Grand Prix thread though, it was really boring especially this year and that stupid red flag rule where you can change tyres really needs scrapping (how many times do we & the F1 media/teams need to point it out) however you know what to expect with Monaco so for me it feels kinda pointless to moan all that much about it. I say that as someone whos only hobby is moaning about things.

[Sodemo]

They could go for something like a different quali session like a one shot showdown type affair, or do a sprint race and the finishing order is the starting order for the race on Sunday...?

Thing is, the real problem are the cars themselves, they have painted themselves into a corner of huge aero, heavy, long wheelbase cars. I dont think any of those attributes are helpful around Monaco.

They need something akin to the cars of 1990-1993, small upper surface wings, 500-600kg, much shorter wheelbase + overall length

[Taxi645]

The F2 race this year:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hp7NQKlkNY


190cm wide, bit shorter than F1 and less power so more time for the slipstream effect to kick in.



Admitted, it's the highlights so all action condensed in 6 minutes.

[Plantagenet]

It's not going to happen, but:

-Qualifying in F1 cars for half points on Saturday
-Formula ford race on Sunday for half points, drivers allocated to cars via ballot

We/I can but dream!!

[Rusty Nail]

Not a bad dream

But, whilst I love FF, they could appear a bit slow even at Monaco.

Since we're fantasizing, why not swap out the FFs for Superkarts?

[V8 Fireworks]

Indycar raced on the similarly tight Detroit circuit recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUC6vzOnP5U

Instead of a procession, the race was a demolition derby with numerous incidents and pile-ups (greater than the Magnussen/Perez one).

Do folks suppose that is better or worse than the Monaco Grand Prix?

Edit -- For the purposes of comparison, here is an overlay of the Detroit Indycar circuit compared to the Detroit Formula 1 circuit: https://storage.googleapis.com/the-r...k-UPDATE-2.png IIRC, the larger Detroit F1 circuit produced less incidents.

As in Monaco, there may be various logistical reasons why this particular circuit layout must now be used.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Indycar raced on the similarly tight Detroit circuit recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUC6vzOnP5U

Instead of a procession, the race was a demolition derby with numerous incidents and pile-ups (greater than the Magnussen/Perez one).

Do folks suppose that is better or worse than the Monaco Grand Prix?

Edit -- For the purposes of comparison, here is an overlay of the Detroit Indycar circuit compared to the Detroit Formula 1 circuit: https://storage.googleapis.com/the-r...k-UPDATE-2.png IIRC, the larger Detroit F1 circuit produced less incidents.

As in Monaco, there may be various logistical reasons why this particular circuit layout must now be used.

Thankyou for sharing that overlay. I had been trying to work out where the old F1 layout went from the tv footage of the recent race!

I can't believe there aren't better options available to make the layout longer and wider!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard C

In all seriousness, you can't "fix" Monaco from an F1 perspective. It will always be hard to pass.

Richard

How about 5 joker laps per driver where you are allowed to cut the Nouvelle chicane?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

How about 5 joker laps per driver where you are allowed to cut the Nouvelle chicane?

Might work! I think they could use a few of the Mario Kart power up such as Banana Peels, various shells, Mushroom, Bob-omb, etc. Or they can make it more triathlon style. Every so many laps they have to jump in the harbor and swim a lap around a few yachts and then something else. Like eat a bunch of hot dogs. Maybe the hot dogs is a bit too "'Merica". Maybe eat a massive bowl of Bouillabaisse. Then get back in the car and take off again!

Richard

[bathurst77]

10 cars go clockwise, 10 go widdershins. Each driver changes direction at lap 39
Would definitely be interesting,