FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[SamBinfield]

As this seems like the most appropriate place to ask, how is the specification of a non-homologated car handled for the purpose of HTP's? As an example (unless I am otherwise mistaken) the Ginetta G4 R, for which I can only find homologation papers for the earlier G4. As I understand it from reading previous posts, it is acceptable to fit any engine used in that type of car in a period International event, thus allowing the use of the Lotus Twin-Cam. Likewise, I imagine that the bodywork is covered by period photographs. What I do not understand is how finer details such as minimum weight, final drive, gear ratios, brake system and the like are determined in this case. Would anyone be willing to indulge my curiosity?

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by SamBinfield

As this seems like the most appropriate place to ask, how is the specification of a non-homologated car handled for the purpose of HTP's? As an example (unless I am otherwise mistaken) the Ginetta G4 R, for which I can only find homologation papers for the earlier G4. As I understand it from reading previous posts, it is acceptable to fit any engine used in that type of car in a period International event, thus allowing the use of the Lotus Twin-Cam. Likewise, I imagine that the bodywork is covered by period photographs. What I do not understand is how finer details such as minimum weight, final drive, gear ratios, brake system and the like are determined in this case. Would anyone be willing to indulge my curiosity?

That's where historic motor sport gets interesting. The Non-Homologated cars are handled through an intricate work of getting the period documentation such as pictures, programs, scrutineering sheets, bills of sales, manufacturers documentation and so on altogether to prove the specification you claim to have existed at a given moment in the timeframe you wish to register the car in.

On the Ginetta G4R it was handled in the FIA over a period of two years and with two different and comprehensive dossiers put together by the Applicant, with numerous pictures, documentation and testimonies on the car from USA and UK as well as tracking the period car to seek further clarification.

On our side, a total panel of 6 people were consulted, either for their period knowledge of the manufacturer and model, the rules and their interpretation as well as simply the analysis of the dossiers submitted.

Another aspect which may be of interest in this is that we also carry our own research, the FIA gathers together its own database in order to analyse or asses period practices. We give way ourselves and this through our own documentation. We try, once a period practice is proven to have it become acceptable should the specification be matching and that's the key aspect.

One practice may appear "acceptable" but remember that a specification is a whole and not "cherry picking" the best out of one and another.

[Duddha]

A little update on FIA Regulations and Appendix K, following on WMSC of 14.06.2019 the latest version of Appendix K will be available here - https://www.fia.com/historic-regulations

Also and for your information, the same regulations are available on the FIA Historic Database as well in the regulations section - https://historicdb.fia.com/

It concerns the addition of a harness safety standard under Appendix K Article 5 for Safety and two updated to Appendix VII of Appendix K which are for the Porsche and Cobra.

Last, I apologise on my previous post and spelling error, "assess" was what I meant and thanks to one for pointing it out, my French is very bad, sorry

[SamBinfield]

Originally Posted by Duddha

That's where historic motor sport gets interesting. The Non-Homologated cars are handled through an intricate work of getting the period documentation such as pictures, programs, scrutineering sheets, bills of sales, manufacturers documentation and so on altogether to prove the specification you claim to have existed at a given moment in the timeframe you wish to register the car in.

On the Ginetta G4R it was handled in the FIA over a period of two years and with two different and comprehensive dossiers put together by the Applicant, with numerous pictures, documentation and testimonies on the car from USA and UK as well as tracking the period car to seek further clarification.

On our side, a total panel of 6 people were consulted, either for their period knowledge of the manufacturer and model, the rules and their interpretation as well as simply the analysis of the dossiers submitted.

Another aspect which may be of interest in this is that we also carry our own research, the FIA gathers together its own database in order to analyse or asses period practices. We give way ourselves and this through our own documentation. We try, once a period practice is proven to have it become acceptable should the specification be matching and that's the key aspect.

One practice may appear "acceptable" but remember that a specification is a whole and not "cherry picking" the best out of one and another.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply - very much appreciated 🙂Surely it is not possible to determine every last detail of the specification however? Items featured in homologation papers such as brake disc diameter, gear ratio, valve sizes, minimum weight surely cannot be identified precisely in all cases because the records surely don’t exist. My assumption would be that these open points are resolved based on what was likely - for example, taking over valve sizes from other similar cars homologated with the Twin-Cam engine, weight from the regulations governing the class, disc size inferred from a period article “brakes were Triumph items” or something along those lines?

[Simon Hadfield]

The point should be made that it is always the responsibility of the applicant to show why a car is in the specification that is presented. The overriding qualification is that the car must have competed - legally and provably - in a event that was on the FIA International Calendar of that year. Therefore there would have been regulations that the car had to comply with and usually - because it was an International event - there would be photographs and documentation that is discoverable. Usually.......

[SamBinfield]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

The point should be made that it is always the responsibility of the applicant to show why a car is in the specification that is presented. The overriding qualification is that the car must have competed - legally and provably - in a event that was on the FIA International Calendar of that year. Therefore there would have been regulations that the car had to comply with and usually - because it was an International event - there would be photographs and documentation that is discoverable. Usually.......

Thanks - understood regarding that the onus is on the applicant to prove the case - however, what happens in the case that the historical evidence is not exhaustive? Though I stand to be corrected, it seems unlikely to me that every last detail required for the HTP application can be identified explicitly for all non-homologated cars that competed in FIA International events. If it is the case that explicit evidence for some (presumably more minor) details cannot be found, are those cars then unable to be granted HTPs, or instead is an argument made based upon reasoning of partial evidence? Perhaps this might be something along the lines of a car being noted to have alloy callipers from a particular manufacturer, fitted to a particular upright which is known, and so the model of the calliper and in turn the number/size of pistons can be inferred - for the sake of example.

That said, maybe the situation described has not ever actually happened- you’ll have to forgive me, but being mostly away from the historic racing world this year has given me a lot of time to read old posts and non-homologated cars are an interesting case that I haven’t yet had very much to do with 🙂

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by SamBinfield

Thanks - understood regarding that the onus is on the applicant to prove the case - however, what happens in the case that the historical evidence is not exhaustive? Though I stand to be corrected, it seems unlikely to me that every last detail required for the HTP application can be identified explicitly for all non-homologated cars that competed in FIA International events. If it is the case that explicit evidence for some (presumably more minor) details cannot be found, are those cars then unable to be granted HTPs, or instead is an argument made based upon reasoning of partial evidence? Perhaps this might be something along the lines of a car being noted to have alloy callipers from a particular manufacturer, fitted to a particular upright which is known, and so the model of the calliper and in turn the number/size of pistons can be inferred - for the sake of example.

That said, maybe the situation described has not ever actually happened- you’ll have to forgive me, but being mostly away from the historic racing world this year has given me a lot of time to read old posts and non-homologated cars are an interesting case that I haven’t yet had very much to do with ��

You may understand that what you think may not be proven by the lack of homologation records can actually be through other documentation. This relates to manufacturers invoice, records, the fact that many kit car were as an example using parts from production cars, etc.

Also and with the World Wide Web having become very big, many things have come out, forums, photographic archives, catalogues, plenty of info which have helped either prove a specification or actually to turn "belief" into a clear rejection.

[Peter Mallett]

A reminder since, somewhat inconveniently, I've just discovered my MGB papers had expired:

A newly issued HTP will remain valid for 10 years from the year of issue; for example, an
HTP issued during 2017 will be valid until 31st December 2027.

Previously issued HTPs will have a valid life of either five or 10 years, dependent on when it
was first issued, the following is a guide to the validity of previously issued HTPs:

HTPs issued prior to 2011 with an FIA Identity Number up to 34096 will expire on 31st
December 2016.

HTPs issued in 2012 with an FIA Identity Number of 34097-35020 will expire on 31st
December 2017.

HTPs issued in 2013 with an FIA Identity Number of the format XXXXX-13 on a 12-page
form will expire on 31st December 2018

HTPs issued in 2014 with an FIA Identity Number of the format XXXXX-14 on a 12-page
form will expire on 31st December 2019

HTPs issued from 2013 onwards on a 26-page form are valid for 10 years from the year of
issue.

I had thought that all HTPs were extended to 10 years. Then I discovered the above notes on the Motorsport UK website. As you can see they've tried to make it as complicated as possible so not only do you need to look at the number and the date, you also need to count the pages!

Anyway I've stumped up the 650 quid and now got a new number. The car will be inspected in September, provided it survives the Classic intact.

[Oneball]

I’m considering colours for my period G2 GTS car and thinking ahead to HTP application. If I wish to paint the car green with a white stripe for example, is this a “livery” that the period photo on page 2 of the HTP must show?

Thanks Tim

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Oneball

I’m considering colours for my period G2 GTS car and thinking ahead to HTP application. If I wish to paint the car green with a white stripe for example, is this a “livery” that the period photo on page 2 of the HTP must show?

Thanks Tim

Welcome Tim! If no-one replies promptly on here you may have to clarify with the MSUK Technical department or one of their HTP Inspectors regarding the ‘period photo’ requirement. It may only be if you want to replicate a period scheme or have a car that ran in period in a particular scheme, but others will know more precisely!

[Oneball]

Thanks Mike, having a factory coloured Mini for 20 years I’ve never really thought about whether fancy colours are allowed and seeing as G2 is the 1970s it needs to be a bit wild!

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Welcome Tim! If no-one replies promptly on here you may have to clarify with the MSUK Technical department or one of their HTP Inspectors regarding the ‘period photo’ requirement. It may only be if you want to replicate a period scheme or have a car that ran in period in a particular scheme, but others will know more precisely!

I can confirm that a green car with a stripe will not be considered as a livery and will not be a HTP question. However, the period specification picture on Page 2 must show the technical specification of the car presented including body shape, accessories and all to be matching.

But a period run scheme can be and if used, has to be the way it used to be.

[Oneball]

Thanks Duddha.

That's really helpful, I was going round in circles with the MSA as they kept referring me back to the App K.

Tim

[Oneball]

Thanks Duddha and Mike.

[Oneball]

Thanks Mike and Duddha. I’d never really thought about it before but trying to find a painter for my winter project and looking at colours that’d work on the Vette.