Drivers and Marshals (split from Yellow Flag thread) - Page 2

EvilPumpkin · 20 Jul 2006, 07:46 (Ref:1660569)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

realy?

may i ask if you race yourself?
and if so are you telling me you would happily just sit there waiting for your car to get hit??

No, I'm a marshal. I don't expect anyone to sit happily waiting for their car to be hit. What I DO expect is that someone who is racing is familiar with the chain of command at a race circuit and directs their problem to the correct person instead of taking out their frustration on whoever is closest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

if so you are a far better man than me, because I couldn't.

I'm better than a man in general dear. I'm a woman

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

I built my car
I work Very hard to keep it on track and to pay entry fees etc etc I self finance and its not cheap.

I'm sure you did and I have no doubt how much time and emotion you have invested in it. However, see my response in the first paragraph. If you really care so very much about it, maybe you shouldn't race it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

now if I spin off I am to blame I accept that.
but its not a unique occurance. in fact I bet its factored in to the training that a marshal receives? ie how to deal with a driver in the event of a spin. things to be done etc.

Yes it is. Now so far you have not offered any proof whatever that a call was not made and refused by race control. If no attempt was made to shift the car, then either it wasn't shiftable i.e. too deeply buried in gravel or there weren't enough marshals to do so, or it was not considered safe to try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

now if after 2 laps a car is still on the edge of the circuit and cars are not slowing down ( even if they were they could still make a mistake or have a mechanical failure etc) The driver is more than justified to ask the question. if the question is ignored what is he going to do? shrug his shoulders and hope for the best??
no he is going to make his feelings clear.

Ok make up your mind. From your original post you said that the Observer had not made a call about your car and only did so after you threatened him. Is that the case or not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

I would LOVE to hear the report that someone would make against a driver in such a situation.

Post x
Time: xx:xx
Race: <racing class>
Car number: <number>
Car X came off into gravel trap. Call put in. Requested <insert request here>. Request denied. Driver then demanded that we call for race stop. When we did not comply, driver became angry and threatened those on post that he would "hold them personally responsible if anything happened to his car".

Think that pretty much covers it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

I am certain that it would get all the attention it deserved.

Well I hope so. Because I'll tell you, I've dealt with a number of abusive drivers - ones who have threatened me with implied legal action (personally responsible, it'll be your neck if anything happens to that car blah blah blah), ones who've physically threatened me, ones that have called me names - why? Because I was doing my job. I know a lot of other marshals who have had similar problems. So yes, I would hope someone would treat it with the attention it deserves.

I accept that things are said in the heat of the moment. The majority of drivers calm down and usually apologise. If that's the case, then I wouldn't bother putting in a report.

However, where it's a case where someone has not only done this but considers that what they did was perfectly ok, then that needs to be addressed.

Ian Sowman · 20 Jul 2006, 08:05 (Ref:1660590)

I would say that any driver who has been involved in an incident during a race is likely to be a bit emotional.

I know if I had an accident of some kind I might be bit shocked, get a bit sweary, shout at people, behave irrationally, not be the sweet person that I normally am.

That might upset the people that are around me at the time.

I can see how that would translate to the race circuit. But, at a race circuit the people who will come into immediate contact with a driver - the marshals - will 'expect' and in many cases be trained for such an eventuality. One of the many skills required to be a marshal is people management, therefore. You'll need the ability to let a certain amount of verbal attack wash over you. It might include a demand to stop a race. In the heat of the moment, I don't see why it would need an automatic report.

Just my view, and to some extent it accords with that of EP.

EvilPumpkin · 20 Jul 2006, 08:15 (Ref:1660598)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

I can see how that would translate to the race circuit. But, at a race circuit the people who will come into immediate contact with a driver - the marshals - will 'expect' and in many cases be trained for such an eventuality. One of the many skills required to be a marshal is people management, therefore. You'll need the ability to let a certain amount of verbal attack wash over you. It might include a demand to stop a race. In the heat of the moment, I don't see why it would need an automatic report.

Just my view, and to some extent it accords with that of EP.

As per my post, we know that it happens and we allow for it - but only when it's a situation where it's clear that once the driver calms down, he/she accepts that they were out of order - which the vast majority of them do. It's drivers that not only do this, but believe that it's ok for them to do it, that I have the issue with.

**Stephen Green** · 20 Jul 2006, 08:19 (Ref:1660601)

Ian, I think that was covered when Terri said "if an apology was offered, a report wouldn't be submitted" of something very similar.

As a regular Observer at Paddock Hill bend I would like to add a further comment on the driver (not necessarily Alf) speaking to the Observer regarding a race stop. The Observer is not always situated close to the accident as Paddock Hill is a pretty long stretch of track, and therefore the driver may have spoken to another member of the marshalling team, not necessarily the Observer.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the Observer can only request a red flag, not demand it. The decision is taken by the Clerk of the Course and if a driver has a query about that, then they should go and see him after the race. In the majority of cases if we (the Observer) ask for a stop, it is given as the Clerks not only trust our judgement, but also view the incident on CCTV.

We all understand that after an accident or spin the driver is likely to be pretty cheesed off, either with another driver or himself for spinning out etc. Yes we are trained to try and deal with such incidents, but being human beings (no dodgy comments please) we each treat it in a different manner.

Bodysnatcher and I often work as a team at Paddock Hill bend and I know from many years experience that he would take the necessary steps to safeguard the driver and his car, but within the confines of what is agreeable from the Clerk.

I guess this arguement could rage forever, each side coming up with fresh arguement as to the rights and wrongs of the situation. At the end of the day though we (marshals) are there to give as much protection to drivers and their cars as possible, a job not undertaken lightly.

To Alf and any other driver who would be willing, why not come along to a training day and give an account of your experiences of marshalling and where you think there is room for improvement. This is not intended to give a platform to slate you in any way, but it's always good to hear from both driver and marshal about how specific incidents could be handled. At Brands Hatch we are quite lucky in that we do get drivers come to our training days and they are very warmly received. Yet another way of getting both sides working together!

Bob Pearson · 20 Jul 2006, 09:13 (Ref:1660616)

After a number of years of racing the driver builds up a picture based on events he has seen and knows about of cases where red flag decisions appear to have been taken on how late the programme is running and has the race gone far enough to declare a result? Over a period of time the evidence gets strong enough to know these decisions are taken for the wrong reasons at meetings run by certain clubs. I am quite sure it is not driven by individuals, but is driven by the organising clubs. Personally, I simply will not run with such clubs and stick with the people I can trust.
This business of drivers and marshals falling out at the points of accidents is terribly unfortunate, to a large extent it is a case of " don't shoot the messanger". The real villains lurk at the other end of the phone, and the only real option open to the driver is to work out who are villains and who aren't and make the move accordingly as I have done.
I, am often a bit grumpy when I have thrown it off, but I try to restrict it to sullen silence. The only thing that has ever wound me up is the marshal trying to march me away while holding my arm. That's never going to go down well with anyone unless he/she is into being a submissive in some SM scene.

**Stephen Green** · 20 Jul 2006, 10:09 (Ref:1660650)

Bob, thanks for your comments. You will be glad to know that we are asked not to lead drivers away by the arm for that very reason. Under normal circumstances we would remain reasonably close to the driver, especially if there has been a heavy impact, just as a matter of safety. I find it often breaks the ice if I offer the driver a drink of water as he is normally pretty thirsty after racing.

Bob Pearson · 20 Jul 2006, 12:20 (Ref:1660743)

Stephen,
I haevn't been "marched" for some years now, and its good to know that efforts have been made to stamp it out. You're spot on with the water, always gratefully received.

**dtype38** · 20 Jul 2006, 13:17 (Ref:1660775)

Did a bit of marshalling (well, standing there just in case I was needed) at Lydden Hill this year. Lovely bunch of people, take everything very seriously trackside. Couldn't do it very often though.... the races seem to last so much longer and have much less action than when you're behind the wheel

**Stephen Green** · 20 Jul 2006, 14:03 (Ref:1660804)

I'm waiting for a driver to offer to let me drive his car while he takes my place marshalling for the day

novicecross · 20 Jul 2006, 14:29 (Ref:1660817)

When I had a big off at Thruxton recently, I had my first exposure to Marshalls other than through the flags. I have to say they were great. I felt very annoyed with myself and to be honest embarrassed as I had essentially thrown it off albeit in difficult conditions. They were friendly and obviously concerned to see that I was OK. They clearly took their job seriously but were very good natured about it. I was very impressed on an otherwise very unimpressive day!!

alf · 20 Jul 2006, 17:19 (Ref:1660932)

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilpumpkin

I'm sure you did and I have no doubt how much time and emotion you have invested in it. However, see my response in the first paragraph. If you really care so very much about it, maybe you shouldn't race it.

is this supposed to be taken seriously?
are you delibertly
a) ignoring the points I am making
b) failing to understand them
c) just trying to wind people up?

I will bow out of this one now, because its getting a bit silly.

however to the Stephen Green

I would be delighted, when would you suggest?

Incidently I owned an Indoor karting circuit for 10 years. I worked on every marshall point, managed the pit lane and (mainly ran race control). in this environment ( dealing with joe public) you are in a very very intence situation, you cant ever expect the courtesy of proper racing drivers because you can't take a licence that they dont have( so to speak)so having a proper grip on procedings is an art. with this in mind please now concider my probable attitude towards the boys in orange,,,ok yeah girls too

I am sure this will prompt a few snigers from certain circles " go karts!!!?? thats just games, "
well I am certain that keeping a race meeting going smoothly with 12 local dj's from a pirate radio station is everybit as hard to run as most club events

floodgates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**dtype38** · 20 Jul 2006, 20:37 (Ref:1661047)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EP

I'm sure you did and I have no doubt how much time and emotion you have invested in it. However, see my response in the first paragraph. If you really care so very much about it, maybe you shouldn't race it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

is this supposed to be taken seriously?
floodgates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No floodgates... but I have to agree with EP, if its that precious then the race track is no place to be taking it!

alf · 20 Jul 2006, 21:54 (Ref:1661074)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtype38

No floodgates... but I have to agree with EP, if its that precious then the race track is no place to be taking it!

well how does one better define the desire not to see it come to avoidable harm??????????????????????

if you dropped a £50 note would you pick it up?
I guess yes
does that make it precious??
no
but you dont want to just watch it wasted for the want of slight intervention

EvilPumpkin · 21 Jul 2006, 07:38 (Ref:1661256)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

well how does one better define the desire not to see it come to avoidable harm??????????????????????

if you dropped a £50 note would you pick it up?
I guess yes
does that make it precious??
no
but you dont want to just watch it wasted for the want of slight intervention

I think your sig tells us everything we need to know. The bottom line is that you are convinced that you are right and therefore, nothing anyone else has to say is going to make the slightest difference. People have read your posts and read mine and I'm sure they're capable of making their own minds up about the situation.

Getting back to conduct under yellows, there were some comments about the speed that a yellow flag is waved at conveying urgency. I know when I was originally training, there was the idea that "slow waved yellow" and "fast waved yellow" would demonstrate to the oncoming drivers the severity of the incident.

However, as time has gone one, I have come to the conclusion that drivers don't see us long enough for them to figure out how fast we're waving. Mind you, if they seem me hanging off the bank, holding onto the catch fencing with one hand and trying to hit their windscreen with the flag with the other, that usually gets their attention

Something that came up recently in our training is that a yellow flag waved too fast may actually be more difficult to see from a moving car. Any comments on that one?

Locost47 · 21 Jul 2006, 08:30 (Ref:1661297)

I think that last comment by EP is not fair.

Even though i race in a very humble category my car took hundreds of hours to build and cost me thousands. It requires constant maintenance to keep in a race-worthy condition and is very precious to me.

I fully accept that every time i go out on track i must be willing to come back without it or else i'll never be able to push to the limits but i would still be very unhappy at the thought of it being wrecked unecessarily. You have to be willing to make the sacrifice in the pursuit of the sport you love but you wouldn't just sit back and allow it to be in danger any more than you'd invite a gang of thieves around to see if they wanted to steal it.

In Alf's original situation i too would have argued my case with the marshalls, still very politely and respectfully and certainly without threats. As has been said earlier, the decision to stop the race isn't theirs, but they do have a direct line to race control and the people in there do have that power. It's unlikely that they'd hand over the radio to me to do the talking so i would communicate via them.

If the response came back that the CoC thought the race should continue then i'd be unhappy but it's their choice. I would however go to see them afterwards and discuss the matter in the same way as i would if i'd seen any other incident which i thought increased the danger out on track.

I don't consider any part of this viewpoint to be unreasonable. It is subject to argument and disagreement, sure, but in no way is it disrespectful to marshalls, the CoC or anyone else for that matter.

**Stephen Green** · 21 Jul 2006, 08:40 (Ref:1661304)

Let me reitterate. The Obserever can request a stop or red flag but the decision rests with the CoC. If he has decided to let the race run under yellow flags there is little the Observer can do to change that decision. Naturally you would have the right to speak to the CoC after the event and express your opinion, but only then.

With regard to marshals doing high speed laps, no it's not a part of any training. The closest we would come to that would be if we were to try it out at one of the MSV marshals track days where drivers often offer to come along and give 'hot laps' as a thank you for our help through the year.

Actually, that might be a very good idea to try out at the next track day which is later this year. I will speak to MSV and get their views. The only downside is that there are very limited marshals on track for a track day, unlike a race meeting. However, it would give us a good idea of what you the driver see and don't see. Another fine example of how together we can try to improve things for both sides!

carsten.meurer · 21 Jul 2006, 09:27 (Ref:1661338)

everytime i take my car to the track, i agree that i might take a roll of wire
back home.
still i wouldn't just sit and watch you doing the job with a big hammer !

i once had a big head on with a car stranded in the middle of the track,
because the guy did let it move just onto my line, after being stationary
already. not my fault i felt...

the marshalls dragged the car without its front wheels behind a normal
estate. was fine with me, as i understood the need to clear the track !
but while far away from the trackside, grass ended and the pulled the car
over tarmac roads and edges !

i took immediate action to stop them !
at first they were irritated by my action, and told me i should let them do
theire job !
then when it was too late, i told them, they had just cost my another 600 DM
in a big shunt, that I have to pay all on my own, as even if it was FVL, i had
no sponsor, no insurance and no rich daddy to pay for it.
they understood that this sort of damage can make a difference on being
out on track next time or not.

so obviously depending on where people marshall, or what event, the
attitude towards the cars might be different aswell ! the above was germany
btw...

high speed rides for marshalls should be as common as marshal days for
drivers! how often did i look twice for that yellow or red flag being flat out,
only to find its a t-shirt or advertising !
at other times, esp in the wet, you could have put a yellow on the nose of
my car and i would not have been able to see it...

Bob Pearson · 21 Jul 2006, 11:28 (Ref:1661421)

I had a horrible feeling that someone would remind us that marshals are volunteers. We know that. Incidentally, some C of C's are salaried staff of the organising clubs. What about the biggest bunch of volunteers at any club race who pay heavily through the nose for the luxury of being allowed to volunteer....................the drivers.

EvilPumpkin · 21 Jul 2006, 11:39 (Ref:1661429)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

I had a horrible feeling that someone would remind us that marshals are volunteers. We know that. Incidentally, some C of C's are salaried staff of the organising clubs. What about the biggest bunch of volunteers at any club race who pay heavily through the nose for the luxury of being allowed to volunteer....................the drivers.

What I'm fascinated by is where this became a "them vs us". All I objected to was someone thinking that threatening a marshal was an acceptable form of behaviour and immediately it's taken as being some kind of attack on drivers and a manifesto that marshals are always right. Neither of which was said or even implied.

I would say exactly the same thing about behaving that manner in the workplace, on this forum, a social situation or any other situation. It's nothing to do with volunteers, motorsport or anything else. It's a matter of common courtesy. You don't start throwing your weight around with people and threatening them. Doesn't matter who they are or what the situation is.

And if you do lose the head - as everyone does - then fine - that happens. Provided you put your hand up after the fact and say "oops my bad" rather that going around trying to justify your behaviour.

I don't see what the problem is with that but then again, I have a fairly old-fashioned attitude to manners and how people should be treated. I'll just put my hand up and say I'm outdated and it's perfectly fine to treat people badly provided you think you have a good reason.

Everyone happy now?

Bob Pearson · 21 Jul 2006, 11:53 (Ref:1661438)

I'm not sure why you used my post to reply to with that text EP. For the record, I agree with every word you said. But............I side with alf earlier when he tried to make the point with you regarding the difference between accidental car damage which we must all accept and avoidable damage which all drivers will detest, even to someone else's car.

carsten.meurer · 21 Jul 2006, 12:13 (Ref:1661455)

ep, you are right aswell as you are wrong...

i agree it has become a case of them and us in some areas !

why ?

because most racers i know are fed up with the cost that tracks and
organizers pull out of our pockets for entry fees.
this is mostly justified with great facilities and the number of people
( incl. marshalls ) involved.
so on first view i need to treat marshalls as part of the service i paid for
( not a small amount ), and would like you to be to my service !
inform me of dangers with flags, and if it goes wrong, do the best to safe me
and my car.

now you have the problem that you rightly argue marshalls are volunteers !
sorry, but how stupid are you to work for free if the club sells your service ?

i get the point of the marshalll in person perfectly, and get the point you do
not get paid ( different in every country ! ). still i am made believe i pay for
you !

so if i feel a marshall is doing something wrong, and remind him ( not phisical
thread, as i must stress ! but threat to hold someone responsible if damage is
caused by not taking apropriate measures must be allowed !!! ) as part of the
organising system i pay for.

so while i appreciate the marshalls personal contribution, i am not happy
with the value i get back from my entry fee.

it a bit like paying the garage a fortune to fit wheels to the car, i see a
mechanic only putting two nuts per wheel, but complaining about that, the
mechanic says he works for free, so i have no reason to complain...

and before i see it come:
yes, i have taken action because i am not happy !
i choose to move to a different country to not pay my home asn the fee for
the licens, and i do very few races !
i will only do events that hold some value for money !
no way i spend 400 plus quid for a hour of tracktime each race...

EvilPumpkin · 21 Jul 2006, 13:06 (Ref:1661486)

Quote: