[BTCC] BTCC 2023 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[Sodemo]

I dont believe the BMW is capable of winning the title, not with Sutton and the Ford with the performance it has. Of the few circuits where the beemer seem to have an advantage, that "advantage" has been eroded away due to a number of factors.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I dont believe the BMW is capable of winning the title, not with Sutton and the Ford with the performance it has. Of the few circuits where the beemer seem to have an advantage, that "advantage" has been eroded away due to a number of factors.

I would disagree with that. I think the BMW is the strongest car in the field, and if Sutton was behind the wheel he would be even further in front of the pack.

Hill himself has said this season that he thinks the Hyundai is the fastest car, and the BMW is the second quickest (that is at all tracks).

Looking at results when you compare team-mates, Sutton and Ingram appear to be doing a better job than Hill or Turkington right now - as evidenced by the Manufacturers' standings.

[Mike Harte]

As has been said, both Sutton and Ingram (and Turkington in the past) have been totally focused on their cars and not on anything else. If they can get to the front, they will do so, obviously, but otherwise they try to maximise their points.

I've said this before, but Hill is far too aggressive and he doesn't pick his fights on track wisely plus he has a tendency to overdrive the BMW which has led to quite a few incidents where he has lost places. He needs to stop making those mistakes. I also think that he should try to be more of a team-mate to the other BMW drivers; I feel that they resent his aggressiveness and unlike the NAPA drivers, they seem unwilling to help him achieve the best possible results.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I also think that he should try to be more of a team-mate to the other BMW drivers; I feel that they resent his aggressiveness and unlike the NAPA drivers, they seem unwilling to help him achieve the best possible results.

Yeah, Ingram and Sutton seem to be very friendly with their teammates but I get the impression it might be a bit more fractious in the BMW camp!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Yeah, Ingram and Sutton seem to be very friendly with their teammates but I get the impression it might be a bit more fractious in the BMW camp!

I appreciate that Sam Osborne is the boss' son, but offering to stand down for the weekend so that Cammish could race his car at Donington, even though Cammish is not in reality fighting for the championship, is not something I would expect to happen at WSR. The fact that Turkington had to lend the team one of his own BMWs last year speaks volumes; they all appear to race as individuals, not as a team.


And to add, I feel, although I have absolutely no evidence of this apart from what I see with my own eyes, that both Ingram and Sutton and pretty well universally liked up and down the pit lane. Again talking volumes, the fact that Sutton took the time and effort to coach Moffat when they were team-mates in the Infinitis which resulted in Moffat actually winning two races. Can you imagine Hill doing that with Jelly? Or Morgan?

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I appreciate that Sam Osborne is the boss' son, but offering to stand down for the weekend so that Cammish could race his car at Donington, even though Cammish is not in reality fighting for the championship, is not something I would expect to happen at WSR.

As you say he’s in a slightly different position, but I think there would be incredibly few drivers on any grid who would make an offer like that, so huge respect to Osborne there.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As has been said, both Sutton and Ingram (and Turkington in the past) have been totally focused on their cars and not on anything else. If they can get to the front, they will do so, obviously, but otherwise they try to maximise their points.

I've said this before, but Hill is far too aggressive and he doesn't pick his fights on track wisely plus he has a tendency to overdrive the BMW which has led to quite a few incidents where he has lost places. He needs to stop making those mistakes. I also think that he should try to be more of a team-mate to the other BMW drivers; I feel that they resent his aggressiveness and unlike the NAPA drivers, they seem unwilling to help him achieve the best possible results.

I would generally agree with the part I've highlighted Mike but must say that I felt Ash was a little over-aggressive at the start of a couple of races earlier in the season (Donington and I can't remember where else) causing him a DNF whereas a simple lift would have enabled him to finish in the points.
I also think he has now learned from these costly mistakes....

[Mike Harte]

You are quite right, Viv; the other race was at Oulton Park. Sometimes he does forget, or more likely just reverts to his past driving style. And he does learn because in the past he could be very like Hill is at present, i.e win at all cost.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I dont believe the BMW is capable of winning the title, not with Sutton and the Ford with the performance it has. Of the few circuits where the beemer seem to have an advantage, that "advantage" has been eroded away due to a number of factors.

Stop crashing into each other and a more daring tyre strategies might be a good start

[BtccLee]

Is it assumed Huff will be back in the ex-Hamilton CUPRA for Silverstone/Brands GP?

Have to say after Lloyd's performance at Donington GP, it would be very intriguing to see what Rob could deliver with more track time.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

Is it assumed Huff will be back in the ex-Hamilton CUPRA for Silverstone/Brands GP?

Have to say after Lloyd's performance at Donington GP, it would be very intriguing to see what Rob could deliver with more track time.

They seemed to suggest he would on comms at Donington, but we’re assuming Huff is wanting a cheque first?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Evantra

They seemed to suggest he would on comms at Donington, but we’re assuming Huff is wanting a cheque first?

As you say, Addison and Harvey did say they expected him to be back in the car for the last two rounds. I think that we have to take into consideration that he is already on a retainer with his other commitments and he may be doing this for fun.

[SV8Predator]

The Team Hardship curse! Dan Lloyd is now looking for more money / further sponsorship.

[porsche962fan]

wasn't their motto "Go HARD or Go Home " ?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by SV8Predator

The Team Hardship curse! Dan Lloyd is now looking for more money / further sponsorship.

Why do these drivers fall for the “cheaper than every other team” deals? It always ends in tears - or do they do it in the hope “it will all work out OK”?

[S griffin]

I get the feeling that they are promised a good budget, but then circumstances get in the way and things have to change

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Why do these drivers fall for the “cheaper than every other team” deals? It always ends in tears - or do they do it in the hope “it will all work out OK”?

A lot depends on how the contract is structured - which can be very different even within teams.

There are a number of factors, which could mean that thinking drivers 'fell for' a deal is an incorrect assumption.

e.g.
HARD. might have a low initial cost, with payments made through the year. Other teams might require more up front. In this case, drivers might only have enough funds ready to go at the start of the season to afford a HARD. seat, and hope to raise more during the season.

Or it could be that certain costs are attributable to the driver as part of the deal, and the on-track activity has resulted in these costs being higher than anticipated.

Or it might be down to the insurance option the driver has taken (with associated excess). Drivers might be taking a financial risk with the cover they have taken, and that risk has now materialised.

[redshoes]

With a few exceptions I can see why most HARD drivers take that route. They aren't going to be championship contenders or even challenging for wins. They could move to another team and spend more money, but what's the point when it won't significantly change their results. They are going to be near the back of the grid regardless.

Dan Lloyd would be one if the exceptions to that. I don't know that he would be a championship contender but in the right team he is clearly capable of better things.

[SV8Predator]

.

[crmalcolm]

So hypothetical:

Assume you are a touring car driver and you want a spot on the grid in the BTCC. It is now early March, and you have two offers on the table.
Team A offers you a drive for 15k per weekend (150k for the season), payable in monthly instalments of 25k each month from May onwards.
Team B offers you a drive of 12k per weekend (120k for the season), payable in full before the end of March.
Then assume you have managed to get 100k of backing secured since the last season finished. Which deal do you take, or do you walk away from the series?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So hypothetical:

Assume you are a touring car driver and you want a spot on the grid in the BTCC. It is now early March, and you have two offers on the table.
Team A offers you a drive for 15k per weekend (150k for the season), payable in monthly instalments of 25k each month from May onwards.
Team B offers you a drive of 12k per weekend (120k for the season), payable in full before the end of March.
Then assume you have managed to get 100k of backing secured since the last season finished. Which deal do you take, or do you walk away from the series?

Presumably at £150,000 for the season you have something else to do after round 4!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Presumably at £150,000 for the season you have something else to do after round 4!

Out of interest, did you see the "hypothetical" at the beginning?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So hypothetical:

Assume you are a touring car driver and you want a spot on the grid in the BTCC. It is now early March, and you have two offers on the table.
Team A offers you a drive for 15k per weekend (150k for the season), payable in monthly instalments of 25k each month from May onwards.
Team B offers you a drive of 12k per weekend (120k for the season), payable in full before the end of March.
Then assume you have managed to get 100k of backing secured since the last season finished. Which deal do you take, or do you walk away from the series?

Any sensible team is going to want around 40% of the budget long before the season even starts.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Any sensible team is going to want around 40% of the budget long before the season even starts.

But I think that the point being made is that maybe Team Hard operate a different business model to other teams requiring less of an up-front payment which could be why 'problems' seem to occur towards the end of the year...

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

But I think that the point being made is that maybe Team Hard operate a different business model to other teams requiring less of an up-front payment which could be why 'problems' seem to occur towards the end of the year...

Thanks, although I did realise that.