[Team] Haas: Gene Haas of NASCAR attempting to start F1 team

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Matt

Oh, I've got plenty.

You have Bill Pullman making patriotic remarks to bunch of pilots lined up?

Anyway, I can't believe there's currently about 20% cut out on the F1 Forums (also known as Autosport forums) saying Haas model is bad This team and their accomplishments are about only thing that actually are making light in the current tunnel of darkness!
http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20...h-good-for-f1/

[wolfhound]

It seems like Haas F1 has created a bit of interest in NASCAR land.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ge...esults-684793/

That can only be good.

[Casper]

I really do like Haas and the way they do things, there are going to be a lot of ruffled feathers though......

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...277.1458220674

[Akrapovic]

"I think a lot of the teams at the back really don't understand what competition is. They're getting maybe a little too fat and happy.​"​

Because of all the money the Sauber mechanics bathe in.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

"I think a lot of the teams at the back really don't understand what competition is. They're getting maybe a little too fat and happy.​"​

Because of all the money the Sauber mechanics bathe in.

Poor management and failing to work within the budget constraints they found themselves in?? Real racing costs real money and if you haven't got it then you can't race, sad but true at all levels from the top to the bottom. Why F1 teams can't work that out beats me.

[Akrapovic]

F1 teams do know it. That's why there's not many of them doing it.

If you want to lose a fortune, start an F1 team.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

F1 teams do know it. That's why there's not many of them doing it.

If you want to lose a fortune, start an F1 team.

I don't think they know when to give it away or when to say we need to cut back because the money in not there. The string of unpaid suppliers is a testament to that when teams go broke. Note the "go broke" and not an admission that they need to stop and leave before liabilites can't be met.

[chillibowl]

compared to the top teams Sauber's budget is low but i believe their budget is around the 100mil mark which is what i believe Haas are spending and more then Manor.

cant discount the importance of money but how much of Sauber's problems are money related vs management related?

seeing what Haas have done, part of me cant help but feel like Sauber has really failed to understand the rules, specifically the extent to which they could have developed a greater technical partnership with Ferrari and that to me speaks to a management issue. the last few years their trajectory has been decidedly downhill.

[JoestForEver]

In a autosport piece about Steiner, he mentioned the budget of Haas at around $150M. Haas might have more resources in racing and R&D considering that Sauber have to pay a huge chunk of money in maintenance of their facilities while Haas just outsourced the job.
If you want to win championship, obviously you have to do everything in house, but for a midfield team honestly outsourcing is probably more efficient.

Sent from my SM-G9250 using Tapatalk

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

seeing what Haas have done, part of me cant help but feel like Sauber has really failed to understand the rules, specifically the extent to which they could have developed a greater technical partnership with Ferrari and that to me speaks to a management issue. the last few years their trajectory has been decidedly downhill.

No, Sauber probably couldn't have done what Haas did. Ferrari has/had less incentive to partner with Sauber further than the relationship they already share.

Sauber are and were bound by testing and wind tunnel restrictions of the newest Concorde agreement. Haas were able to exploit loopholes in the framework because they were not yet competing in F1. Ferrari were compelled to collaborate with Haas because they could gain massively themselves by having Haas do their wind tunnel work for them. There was no such opportunity for Sauber.

[Casper]

My point is regardless of of anything else F1 teams need to manage their financial situation and race within the amount of money they have in the bank (so to speak) not carry on accumulating liabilities which go unpaid when the doors are finally forced closed due to no money to pay anyone including the employees. We have just seen examples of this last year.

[BSchneiderFan]

It's been sad to see Sauber really struggling the past couple of years. They used to be a very tight, competitive mid-grid contender but they're looking like Q1 fodder at the moment, and Haas, China notwithstanding, have come in and done incredibly well. Even if they stopped now, they'd have outperformed Lotus/Caterham, Virgin/Marussia/Manor and the hopeless HRT. (Don't get me started on USF1.) Difficult to know what Sauber should do. Maybe they need the impetus of a new partner? Maybe Honda will get their act together and can supply another team with a decent engine? I don't know what the answer is but it looks to me like *something* has to change at Hinwil.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

It's been sad to see Sauber really struggling the past couple of years. They used to be a very tight, competitive mid-grid contender but they're looking like Q1 fodder at the moment, and Haas, China notwithstanding, have come in and done incredibly well. Even if they stopped now, they'd have outperformed Lotus/Caterham, Virgin/Marussia/Manor and the hopeless HRT. (Don't get me started on USF1.) Difficult to know what Sauber should do. Maybe they need the impetus of a new partner? Maybe Honda will get their act together and can supply another team with a decent engine? I don't know what the answer is but it looks to me like *something* has to change at Hinwil.

Problem is that they are in a very expensive facility that was fine when BMW were paying for it and they are buried in Switzerland which is a very expensive place to operate from.

Sadly, almost there reason for being in operation is no longer there, why would a partner put commercial money into them and it would have to be 10's of millions per annum to make any difference and unless they stumble across a middle eastern to eastern europe 'investor' who is not bothered about much of a return, I can't see them surviving in the medium term.

[BSchneiderFan]

I would be gutted to see Sauber fold. But they're clearly struggling. It's a long time since Karl Wendlinger sat in a car with "Concept by Mercedes-Benz" on the engine cover. Maybe they need to position themselves more explicitly as a B-team for one of the big manufacturers/teams. Red Bull has Toro Rosso, so why not Ferrari or Honda?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Beryl

...Ferrari were compelled to collaborate with Haas because they could gain massively themselves by having Haas do their wind tunnel work for them. There was no such opportunity for Sauber.

thats an interesting point. to my knowledge the technology transfer to Haas has been a one way street...have Ferrari actually taken information/data back from Haas?

other then of course the collection of engine/PU data which i imagine they collect from all of their customers.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thats an interesting point. to my knowledge the technology transfer to Haas has been a one way street...have Ferrari actually taken information/data back from Haas?

other then of course the collection of engine/PU data which i imagine they collect from all of their customers.

I am fairly sure that Ferrari have benefitted from the CAD and wind-tunnel work that they conducted "on behalf of" Haas. This was the area that concerned the other teams last year.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I would be gutted to see Sauber fold. But they're clearly struggling. It's a long time since Karl Wendlinger sat in a car with "Concept by Mercedes-Benz" on the engine cover. Maybe they need to position themselves more explicitly as a B-team for one of the big manufacturers/teams. Red Bull has Toro Rosso, so why not Ferrari or Honda?

Joe Saward seems to think that a Haas-Alfa Romeo tie up would make sense....

[fredd1]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I am fairly sure that Ferrari have benefitted from the CAD and wind-tunnel work that they conducted "on behalf of" Haas. This was the area that concerned the other teams last year.

Absolutely. Stands to reason that data is flowing both ways.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Joe Saward seems to think that a Haas-Alfa Romeo tie up would make sense....

I'm surprised Ferrari don't already badge some of their customer engines as other than Ferrari. But someone at Ferrari (was it Marchionne?) has said that Alfa would only come back as a full constructor.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I'm surprised Ferrari don't already badge some of their customer engines as other than Ferrari. But someone at Ferrari (was it Marchionne?) has said that Alfa would only come back as a full constructor.

All comes down to money though and I can't see Fiat Chrysler wanting to fund an entire team, whereas with Haas they could subsidise the engine and buy some space on the car to Alfa it up a bit more and to the watching public who aren't so in tune with who builds what for who, they could proably make it look Alfa enough to do the job.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The Chrysler connection might appeal, as Haas is a US team.

[Richard C]

So in a way I am surprised there hasn't been much discussion in the past few months about Haas F1. I think that their overall positive performance has likely surprised most everyone. They came out of the gate strong. NBCSN had a short documentary that they aired just before the first race and if you watch that, you would view their initial performance as miraculous. The documentary implied that it all just came together at the last second before pre-season testing. And of course they are a "from scratch" team. But since the first two spectacular races (finishing a car inside the top 10), they are solidly just outside of the top 10 on a regular basis. Which is nothing shabby at all and still likely above everyone's expectations.

One thing I have wondered about is how the process is for them to both develop the 2016 car as well as work on the 2017 car. They used about as much of the Ferrari as they could get away with (suspension, power unit and maybe some other bits). Plus use of Ferrari wind tunnel for aero development. I assume that relationship will continue for the near future. Especially with respect to the suspension and power unit.

They also heavily relied upon Dallara for chassis design and construction. If I remember correctly the idea was to eventually not rely upon Dallara as much and eventually design and construct much of the car (particularly chassis) on their own. Even if they either directly sourced components, or outsourced, it was also my understanding that they had some of their design team embedded with those outside entities for the 2016 car. And clearly to the rules, Haas owns the IP for whatever Dallara created for them.

So to my questions... Has that transition to internal design and construction happened yet? I assume it would be a gradual thing. But are 2016 development parts coming from Dallara, Haas or a mixture of both? Who will design and construct the 2017 car? How much of the design side is driven by Haas (i.e. how much is designed by Haas vs. Dallara)? When will Haas fully design and construct their own chassis and aero? When will Haas move away from the Ferrari wind tunnel and start using the Haas owned Windshear tunnel near their US base of operations? Maybe they have already?

I haven't searched deeply for this stuff, but I don't think I remember seeing much of these items talked about recently in the news.

Richard

[Number4]

Haas' stock car team has been very successful, whilst the technology is totally different, the same principles for racing success are transferable. Previously they purchased their chassis and motors from Hendrick, but next year with a switch to Ford, they will also be building their own chassis.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Number4

Haas' stock car team has been very successful, whilst the technology is totally different, the same principles for racing success are transferable. Previously they purchased their chassis and motors from Hendrick, but next year with a switch to Ford, they will also be building their own chassis.

Their own NASCAR chassis?

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Number4

Haas' stock car team has been very successful, whilst the technology is totally different, the same principles for racing success are transferable. Previously they purchased their chassis and motors from Hendrick, but next year with a switch to Ford, they will also be building their own chassis.

Yes with Roush-Yates motors... long way from F1 though, man.