[Driver] Who is now the best driver in F1?

[nicanary]

It's all about perception. and has been ever thus. Arguments will rage in all eras, because there is no definitive answer.

I was reading a Motor Sport from 1953 the other day, and the end of season reckoning was that Britain's best driver was...... Ken Wharton. This was because he had achieved most, Mike Hawthorn having "only" won a GP in a works Ferrari. Moss, as usual, had picked the wrong car to race.

It's all about personal opinion.

[garcon]

Hamilton came into Formula One on a wave of hysteria whipped up by a British media that recognised British fans demanded a new national F1 hero, a prodigy from "modest" origins they could identify with, someone to fill the gap "posh" Button couldn't.

I do think there is some relevance to the national bias accusation, however similar stories play out in Spain, Brazil, Germany and Australia.

Hamilton got a pretty rare opportunity by virtue of his apprenticeship with McLaren. Rather than spending a rookie year or two in a lesser car, it was decided that when he was judged ready for F1 he was ready for a McLaren.

At first, many could argue that the hype was worth it. He was instantly quick, straight away one of the quickest out there over a few laps. That was plain to see.

But the hype also meant excuses were made for rookie mistakes and by his second year I am certain Hamilton believed he was better than he actually was.

The experience of unluckily missing out on the title, then (arguably luckily) winning it, followed by a fallow year in a dreadful car taught him a great deal, not least that no - he wasn't the best out there, but that if he ignored the hype and the excuses, if he learnt from the mistakes (both his and the team's), and developed his mastery of the craft of a successful F1 driver - a craft that demands many more skills than just being quick over a flat out lap or two - then maybe he could become the best.

His move to Mercedes is the next chapter in that journey. If he can build on his patience, the skills required to lead a team, the technical ability to help develop a car, then he can still become the best.

Right now, for me, Alonso is the best on the grid by a significant margin, followed by Vettel (who I suspect will be Hamilton's nemesis throughout his career). There then follows a small group of drivers all capable of winning races, all capable of a WDC in the most favourable circumstances. That group includes Button, Hamilton, Webber, a resurgent Massa and, potentially, the likes of Perez.

Hamilton won't win the 2013 WDC - he's fourth favourite at the absolute best. But he might win it in 2014 and then he may become Vettel's main rival.

[kartincolin]

People seem to be using the argument that Hamilton came into Formula 1 at a very high level of speed, something Alonso wasn`t able to achieve. For the record, Hamilton clocked up a whopping 10000km of test mileage for McLaren prior to his first race in Australia. People like Esteban Gutierrez and Max Chilton could only dream of such excessive mileage before their first race.

I`m not saying that Hamilton`s first season was not impressive, but let`s not overlook the facts!

[garcon]

I think we should be absolutely clear that Hamilton's path to F1 was very tightly managed by McLaren. Having decided he'd be going straight into a McLaren seat, they were going to be certain he was ready - and that inevitably involved thousands of k's testing as well as a carefully managed route through the lower formulae.

There have been very few new F1 drivers who should even remotely be thought of as rookies. In most cases it's taken them over a decade to get there.

[hannabyjj]

Originally Posted by garcon

Hamilton came into Formula One on a wave of hysteria whipped up by a British media that recognised British fans demanded a new national F1 hero, a prodigy from "modest" origins they could identify with, someone to fill the gap "posh" Button couldn't.

I do think there is some relevance to the national bias accusation, however similar stories play out in Spain, Brazil, Germany and Australia.

Hamilton got a pretty rare opportunity by virtue of his apprenticeship with McLaren. Rather than spending a rookie year or two in a lesser car, it was decided that when he was judged ready for F1 he was ready for a McLaren.

At first, many could argue that the hype was worth it. He was instantly quick, straight away one of the quickest out there over a few laps. That was plain to see.

But the hype also meant excuses were made for rookie mistakes and by his second year I am certain Hamilton believed he was better than he actually was.

The experience of unluckily missing out on the title, then (arguably luckily) winning it, followed by a fallow year in a dreadful car taught him a great deal, not least that no - he wasn't the best out there, but that if he ignored the hype and the excuses, if he learnt from the mistakes (both his and the team's), and developed his mastery of the craft of a successful F1 driver - a craft that demands many more skills than just being quick over a flat out lap or two - then maybe he could become the best.

His move to Mercedes is the next chapter in that journey. If he can build on his patience, the skills required to lead a team, the technical ability to help develop a car, then he can still become the best.

Right now, for me, Alonso is the best on the grid by a significant margin, followed by Vettel (who I suspect will be Hamilton's nemesis throughout his career). There then follows a small group of drivers all capable of winning races, all capable of a WDC in the most favourable circumstances. That group includes Button, Hamilton, Webber, a resurgent Massa and, potentially, the likes of Perez.

Hamilton won't win the 2013 WDC - he's fourth favourite at the absolute best. But he might win it in 2014 and then he may become Vettel's main rival.

By 2008 Alonso was out of the picture and he was the only one close to Hamilton so yes he probably did think he was the best, as he is the best. Alonso is incredible but Hamilton just has that little extra speed. This is why I think it is so hard to beat Hamilton as a teammate (Button did a great job last year) as pretty much all the time you start behind him and even then he won't be stuck in traffic for long because hes very good at overtaking. I genuinely believe the only person that can stop hamilton winning is hamilton, he is his own worst enemy.

[garcon]

There is some truth in that last sentence, and it will be a key factor in his future level of success.


By the way, welcome to ten tenths!

[Born Racer]

Hamilton still had to deliver on those thousands of miles of testing though and deliver he did in 2007. McLaren cannot be faulted for that level of preparation. They were ahead of the game by taking the young talent and fostering that talent. Arguably garcon, he did get ahead of himself after that; you may be right on that. Nonetheless, I think the Hamilton template will be used again (we see Red Bull trying it). Many will not work though. McLaren arguably got a tad lucky Hamilton turned out to be that good. Still, only a tad, because they clearly monitored their junior hopefuls. I mean, where's Fraser Sheader?

[P38 in workshop]

Can somebody remind me when Lewis went from last to a place on the podium?Until he has,why should we give the subject of this thread too much credibility?

[Born Racer]

I don't know when he last did it but there was Turkey in GP2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbjRFd205qo

I wasn't aware that you had to do that to be the best anyway. After all, if you're rating Vettel above him purely for that, what about the help from the lottery car?

[migliacars]

easy one very easy




NO




not by far.

anyone who thinks he is watches to much top gear or has never been to a race track.
or plays with his tail and ps3 to much.

close this silly topic

[Born Racer]

It's a perfectly fair topic to debate, so is not to be closed, unless people keep going on about nationality and tosh like that. Let's not let that happen. It's a good (if futile) debate.

[peckstar]

When you have won 3 drivers championships in a row - you are the best.

When you haven't finished in the top 3 in the same period, - you are not the best

Its the only form of measurement we have. anything else is just opinion and we all no what opinions are...

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by garcon

I do think there is some relevance to the national bias accusation, however similar stories play out in Spain, Brazil, Germany and Australia.

Could you expand on this?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by garcon

Hamilton came into Formula One on a wave of hysteria whipped up by a British media that recognised British fans demanded a new national F1 hero, a prodigy from "modest" origins they could identify with, someone to fill the gap "posh" Button couldn't.

I do think there is some relevance to the national bias accusation, however similar stories play out in Spain, Brazil, Germany and Australia.

Hamilton got a pretty rare opportunity by virtue of his apprenticeship with McLaren. Rather than spending a rookie year or two in a lesser car, it was decided that when he was judged ready for F1 he was ready for a McLaren.

At first, many could argue that the hype was worth it. He was instantly quick, straight away one of the quickest out there over a few laps. That was plain to see.

But the hype also meant excuses were made for rookie mistakes and by his second year I am certain Hamilton believed he was better than he actually was.

The experience of unluckily missing out on the title, then (arguably luckily) winning it, followed by a fallow year in a dreadful car taught him a great deal, not least that no - he wasn't the best out there, but that if he ignored the hype and the excuses, if he learnt from the mistakes (both his and the team's), and developed his mastery of the craft of a successful F1 driver - a craft that demands many more skills than just being quick over a flat out lap or two - then maybe he could become the best.

His move to Mercedes is the next chapter in that journey. If he can build on his patience, the skills required to lead a team, the technical ability to help develop a car, then he can still become the best.

Right now, for me, Alonso is the best on the grid by a significant margin, followed by Vettel (who I suspect will be Hamilton's nemesis throughout his career). There then follows a small group of drivers all capable of winning races, all capable of a WDC in the most favourable circumstances. That group includes Button, Hamilton, Webber, a resurgent Massa and, potentially, the likes of Perez.

Hamilton won't win the 2013 WDC - he's fourth favourite at the absolute best. But he might win it in 2014 and then he may become Vettel's main rival.

Sincerely garcon I enjoyed reading your post, much of what you say is spot on, it went down like a fine bottle of burgundy..

IMHO there is very little to choose between any of the drivers currently on the grid, certainly in the top four teams, Lewis makes mistakes, I like to see that, it reminds me that a robot is not driving the car..

Originally Posted by hannabyjj

By 2008 Alonso was out of the picture and he was the only one close to Hamilton so yes he probably did think he was the best, as he is the best. Alonso is incredible but Hamilton just has that little extra speed. This is why I think it is so hard to beat Hamilton as a teammate (Button did a great job last year) as pretty much all the time you start behind him and even then he won't be stuck in traffic for long because hes very good at overtaking. I genuinely believe the only person that can stop hamilton winning is hamilton, he is his own worst enemy.

It's bloody hard when you are competing with others as good as yourself.

Let us face the fact that Lewis Hamilton is as good as it gets, and in a Red Bull car well...

I am looking forward to watching him at Mercedes in a very positive way..

[Born Racer]

I think he'll shut up a lot of critics at Mercedes, frankly.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Could you expand on this?

It was mentioned early in the thread, and I thought I could try to put that into context. Nothing more than that.

Specifically on Australia, there are as many patriotic Aussie Webber fans as there are Spanish Alonso fans and British Hamilton fans. That doesn't make any of them wrong, just acknowledges that national bias exists.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I think he'll shut up a lot of critics at Mercedes, frankly.

He might, but the critics will have their time first. It'll take a season or more both for him to settle and the team to reach the next competitive level.

[hannabyjj]

Originally Posted by garcon

There is some truth in that last sentence, and it will be a key factor in his future level of success.


By the way, welcome to ten tenths!

Thank you good to be here, love talking about F1

[hannabyjj]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Can somebody remind me when Lewis went from last to a place on the podium?Until he has,why should we give the subject of this thread too much credibility?

Well australia 2009, basically brazil 2009 basically barcelona 2012 nowhere near podium but great effort. Vettel has driven much better than in Abu Dhabi, I thought he drove poorly, broke his front wing twice and had to perfectly timed safety cars, whilst cars were taking each other off left right and centre Vettel is a great driver, but this was not a good drive.

[hannabyjj]

Originally Posted by peckstar

When you have won 3 drivers championships in a row - you are the best.

When you haven't finished in the top 3 in the same period, - you are not the best

Its the only form of measurement we have. anything else is just opinion and we all no what opinions are...

Then why does Alonso say Hamilton is better, why do journalists say Alonso and hamilton are better( most of the time) why do team bosses think alonso is the best.

[Born Racer]

Do you have a link for that, hannabyjj? I've never seen that one. I do remember Alonso once saying in an interview with the British TV media that he was not the fastest driver, but he had other skills that make him very good.

I understand your rationale, peckstar, but I feel it's too simplistic, as you know as well as we all do that the drivers' championship depends on many factors including car failures and car performance. It's true that it's an official gauge, but to my mind it doesn't make sense to say Vettel is the best but then think that had the car broken down on the last lap of every one of his five 2012 wins, he would have won nothing this year and certainly not the championship and would therefore be automatically rendered far from the best driver.

[hannabyjj]

Originally Posted by chunder

Errr, in answer to the original question!! Definitive NO!

He makes too many mistakes and is too inconsistent with his form. And I am not sure he can carry a car or develop one!

I would put Seb, Fernando and maybe even Jenson in front of him to be honest.

Sheer speed Lewis is right there, but right now you need a little more than just speed, unless you drive a REd Bull

Name 5 out 20 races where Jenson was better than lewis. I bet you can't.

[hannabyjj]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Do you have a link for that, hannabyjj? I've never seen that one. I do remember Alonso once saying in an interview with the British TV media that he was not the fastest driver, but he had other skills that make him very good.

I understand your rationale, peckstar, but I feel it's too simplistic, as you know as well as we all do that the drivers' championship depends on many factors including car failures and car performance. It's true that it's an official gauge, but to my mind it doesn't make sense to say Vettel is the best but then think that had the car broken down on the last lap of every one of his five 2012 wins, he would have won nothing this year and certainly not the championship and would therefore be automatically rendered far from the best driver.

Yes I do :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEzqCcF2mps

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by hannabyjj

Then why does Alonso say Hamilton is better, why do journalists say Alonso and hamilton are better( most of the time) why do team bosses think alonso is the best.

I dont know, the evidence doesnt support it. Probably a bias against the young whipper snapper.

In saying that Alonso is clearly a better driver than Hamilton

[garcon]

I never take the comments of a current competitor at face value. They always have an agenda that dictates what they say. (And if they don't, they should! )