Team Haas: Gene Haas of NASCAR attempting to start F1 team - Page 35

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 04:12 (Ref:3629739)

Dreaded triple post.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 04:15 (Ref:3629740)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

I forgot about the Dallara chassis, first points since 92

As a constructor, Haas are entered as Haas/Ferrari, so nul points for Dallara. Did Dallara actually design the chassis or did they make it? I was under the impression they made it.

fredd1 · 3 Apr 2016, 05:27 (Ref:3629747)

Well then, who designed it?

Think at this point thread title is in need of change.......

Going back to what has been achieved by this team, and I have to say pretty damn impressive they are at this early stage, how much different was their way of doing things from what was proposed by Prodrive back in the day when those other three abject failures appeared?

Akrapovic · 3 Apr 2016, 10:49 (Ref:3629817)

Wikipedia (not the best source, granted) says Dallara designed and built the car.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 11:16 (Ref:3629825)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Wikipedia (not the best source, granted) says Dallara designed and built the car.

Are you sure about that? In the paragraph Preparations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_F...ons_.282015.29, it says: "Haas approached Italian manufacturer Dallara to build their chassis, with a power unit supplied by Ferrari". I couldn't see anything about designing it.

Akrapovic · 3 Apr 2016, 11:22 (Ref:3629826)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_VF-16

"The Haas VF-16 is a Formula One car designed and built by Italian chassis manufacturer Dallara on behalf of Haas F1 Team for use in the 2016 Formula One season."

Hence why wiki is not a great source.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 11:25 (Ref:3629828)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_VF-16

"The Haas VF-16 is a Formula One car designed and built by Italian chassis manufacturer Dallara on behalf of Haas F1 Team for use in the 2016 Formula One season."

Hence why wiki is not a great source.

Indeed it's not.

Akrapovic · 3 Apr 2016, 11:32 (Ref:3629832)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...2016-car-vf16/

This says Dallara designed it. But whilst I respect R&T, they aren't usually the best for Motorsport news.

Deleted · 3 Apr 2016, 12:23 (Ref:3629847)

Ask Sam Collins. He is sure to know anything technical of this sort.

Richard C · 3 Apr 2016, 13:52 (Ref:3629863)

Wikipedia is only as accurate as its sources. That particular quote is attributed to a 2014 Autosport article. If you look at just that quote, who is wrong? Wikipedia, Autosport, both or neither? Frankly my opinion is that the article is just using some outdated sources. We know much more now than we did in 2014.

In reality the quote is more accurate than not, but also not the full story. And you can't boil the entire topic or article down to a single quote. Later on they go into a tiny bit more details about the suspension, engine and transmission being sourced from Ferreri. So clearly things such as the entire rear of the car is designed by Ferrari as well as the front suspension geometry, mounting points and likely all of the inboard spring and damper setup. That is a large part of the car.

I would expect Dallara were "mostly" responsible for the monocoque, crash structure (front, rear, side) and that there was a more collaborative (Dallara plus Haas staff) approach on the aero. The short documentary shown on NBCSN here in the US (I wish they would release it online for free) clearly shows what looks to be a collaboration between Haas employees and Dallara.

Richard

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 13:58 (Ref:3629867)

This James Allen article is suitably vague.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/0...-team-haas-f1/

"Long-time Italian chassis manufacturer, Dallara, is producing Haas F1’s first car", that could mean anything. Either way it's a collaboration between Haas, Dallara and Ferrari's wind tunnel.

Richard C · 3 Apr 2016, 14:14 (Ref:3629871)

Oh, and looking back at the posts on the last page as to what triggered the "who designed the car" discussion... While we can say that broadly speaking Dallara is the "designer", clearly the rules say that Haas must own the IP for specific items of which I believe the monocoque is the chief component. So while Haas contracted out to Dallara, it is not a "Dallara" if that makes sense. Same situation with the initial HRT.

The outsourcing of the core chassis construction is relatively unique these days given the rules against customer cars, but there clearly is a significant collection of third party suppliers that orbit top level series like F1, WEC, etc. I would be curious to know what the typical "job" is like. Do you receive a complete spect that has been fully designed and all you must do is construct? Or is there room for using your own design staff to do engineering/design to meet broader design requirements? At a minimum things like wheels, brakes, etc. are primarily designed by third party suppliers. My point being that I suspect even the largest teams may outsource not just some construction tasks, but maybe even some design tasks?

Richard

Moneyseeker · 3 Apr 2016, 16:55 (Ref:3629922)

An amazing 5th for Grosjean, topping the 6th place in Melbourne this will have Pat Symonds hopping up and down even more....

Great job by Haas must be best of the best new team debuts since, er .....someone is bound to know!

ECW Dan Selby · 3 Apr 2016, 17:07 (Ref:3629925)

Totally chuffed for Grosjean.

Many thought he was mad moving from Lotus/Renault to Haas. What a move this was!

And just to think, after Melbourne they were joking how they were going to go and better it in Bahrain.

Outstanding!

Selby

canamman · 3 Apr 2016, 17:08 (Ref:3629927)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Great job by Haas must be best of the best new team debuts since, er .....someone is bound to know!

Brawn GP 2009?

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 17:19 (Ref:3629936)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

An amazing 5th for Grosjean, topping the 6th place in Melbourne this will have Pat Symonds hopping up and down even more....

Great job by Haas must be best of the best new team debuts since, er .....someone is bound to know!

Walter Wolf Racing debuted in their own right in 1977, with Jody Scheckter winning the opening round at Argentina. He picked up some 2nds and 3rds and then won Monaco. He finished runner up that year and Wolf were 4th in the Constructors. Pretty impressive. That's as far back as I can go.

alan1302 · 3 Apr 2016, 18:31 (Ref:3629961)

Quote:

Originally Posted by canamman

Brawn GP 2009?

That is true although I can never really convince myself they were a new team as such.

BSchneiderFan · 3 Apr 2016, 20:36 (Ref:3629997)

Grosjean is driving his nuts off. Hope some big teams are taking notice.

veeten · 3 Apr 2016, 22:50 (Ref:3630035)

If Haas places another top 10, if not another top 5, then all the other teams will practically scream for a second look at those rules that allowed Haas to assemble his team as he did. The chassis is too well sorted not to be running as it is doing presently.

The one team probably fuming over this is Sauber, whom is feeling like the "jilted lover" being passed over for not only the newest powertrain, but also all the 'goodies' leaving Maranello for Kanapolis.

chrisrb2002 · 3 Apr 2016, 22:51 (Ref:3630036)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Walter Wolf Racing debuted in their own right in 1977, with Jody Scheckter winning the opening round at Argentina. He picked up some 2nds and 3rds and then won Monaco. He finished runner up that year and Wolf were 4th in the Constructors. Pretty impressive. That's as far back as I can go.

But, was that team not formed from the remnants of the original Williams f1 team? vaguely remember Walter Wolf sponsoring the team, money problems then wolf purchased the remnants ?

Also didn't Wolf make industrial machinery ( lathes and such ) weird how these things happen...

veeten · 3 Apr 2016, 22:51 (Ref:3630037)

If Haas places another top 10, if not another top 5, then all the other teams will practically scream for a second look at those rules that allowed Haas to assemble his team as he did. The chassis is too well sorted not to be running as it is doing presently.

The one team probably fuming over this is Sauber, whom is feeling like the "jilted lover" being passed over for not only the newest powertrain, but also all the 'goodies' leaving Maranello for Kanapolis.

Richard C · 3 Apr 2016, 23:27 (Ref:3630038)

I think many teams may not be happy. I put Williams at the top of the list. Could Haas keep up this amazing pace? It's hard to believe, but if so, they could unseat someone like Williams as being "best of the rest". It's amazing to even consider this as a possibility. In reality, it is only the second race and I think what is mostly going on is that Haas has a good solution out of the box. I wonder how well they will do over an entire season (especially with respect to ongoing development).

Anyhow, some thoughts from Pat Symonds after the first round on the topic of Haas and implications to teams such as Williams...

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/127641-...1-teams-status

I can imagine today's results (Haas ahead of both Williams) only reinforces his opinions. I agree it can make it hard to be a "pure" constructor who does all of their own work, but I think it can be healthy for the sport to allow teams to assemble cars either wholly (done in the past) or in part (Haas) from other teams.

Richard

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 23:55 (Ref:3630042)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisrb2002

But, was that team not formed from the remnants of the original Williams f1 team? vaguely remember Walter Wolf sponsoring the team, money problems then wolf purchased the remnants ?

Also didn't Wolf make industrial machinery ( lathes and such ) weird how these things happen...

Initially yes plus the remains of Hesketh, with Frank Willams as team principle. The team contested the 1976 season but to no avail. However, Williams was replaced by Peter Warr from Team Lotus. Jody Scheckter was lured from Tyrrell and Harvey Postlethwaite previously with Hesketh designed a totally new car. Scheckter and won first time out at Argentina in '77. I thought he made his money in oil drilling equipment?

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Apr 2016, 23:57 (Ref:3630045)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think many teams may not be happy. I put Williams at the top of the list. Could Haas keep up this amazing pace? It's hard to believe, but if so, they could unseat someone like Williams as being "best of the rest". It's amazing to even consider this as a possibility. In reality, it is only the second race and I think what is mostly going on is that Haas has a good solution out of the box. I wonder how well they will do over an entire season (especially with respect to ongoing development).

Anyhow, some thoughts from Pat Symonds after the first round on the topic of Haas and implications to teams such as Williams...

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/127641-...1-teams-status

I can imagine today's results (Haas ahead of both Williams) only reinforces his opinions. I agree it can make it hard to be a "pure" constructor who does all of their own work, but I think it can be healthy for the sport to allow teams to assemble cars either wholly (done in the past) or in part (Haas) from other teams.

Richard

Just imagine if both cars had finished in both races.

chillibowl · 4 Apr 2016, 02:13 (Ref:3630064)

What exactly is the Haas budget? For some reason I recal reading $100 mil, plus they have two f1 bases and a wind tunnel, which puts them in Sauber budget territory.

I gues my point is twofold...Haas really isn't a small team and why haven't Sauber been doing this the whole time?

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