"Red and Chequered"

[JimW]

I suppose the difference there is that with both flaqgs being displayed the result will be taken from the lap it is stopped on and with a red only, result it would be rolled back to the previous lap.

I guess that the chequered would be "defined" as having been displayed after the red . I suspect that this use of the two together is 'undefined' and the clerk might have to make a reasonable decision. Good luck!

Interesting to see in today's MSA publication for licence holders (motorsportsnow! - sorry about the punctuation - its theirs!) that a new regulation (J.5.4.6 for 2007) is proposed to cover the case where the race is interrupted after the chequered flag is shown. I guess that by 'interrupted' they mean that a red flag is shown because a situation needs to to be controlled faster than would be achieved by the chequered.

I have known such a situation and so I can see that specifying how placings are determined makes sense.

Regards

Jim

[GordonG]

Maybe I'm missing something, but: If a red and a chequered are deployed on the finish line, the reds will propagate (as discussed on this thread) in both directions round the circuit - so some will see the chequered & red first (and so will have been racing up to the line), while others, further back, will see the reds first before the finish line and hence will not be racing when they come to the line.

Whilst it may not be strictly correct, it's common for cars to pull alongside (congratulating each other on a good race, e.g.) or pass each other once they have slowed down, and if you've seen the red before the pit lane entry it's possible or likely that a driver would simply go straight into the pits.

So how then can they take the result as cars pass the chequered? That's why on a red the result is taken from the previous lap.

Also, when a driver sees a chequered he races to the line and may well try a last ditch pass on the final straight. When he sees a red he (hopefully) immediately backs off, slows and maybe sticks his hand up. If I see a red and a chequered and I'm in a battle, which do I do? Will the other guy do the same?

The restarting of the race is at the CoC's discretion anyway. Deploying reds following an incident neutralises the race, and a result may be declared based on teh previous lap if the CoC sees fit. Deploying the chequered as well just seems to me to be confusing the issue.

G

[JimW]

Originally Posted by GordonG

. . .
The restarting of the race is at the CoC's discretion anyway. Deploying reds following an incident neutralises the race, and a result may be declared based on teh previous lap if the CoC sees fit. Deploying the chequered as well just seems to me to be confusing the issue.

G

Not exactly the full story, I think.

Leader less than 2 laps completed - no contest and a restart.

Leader >2 laps and < 50% (75% for Nat. A and Int.) - First part of a two part contest. "Cars will be restarted from a grid set out in the finishing order derived as J 5.4.4 and the final result will be the order of finishing at the end of the restarted race unless Championship Regulations specify otherwise."

CoC may abandon second part altogether.

J.5.4.4 . . . The finishing order shall be based on the order of crossing the finish line at one lap less than at the time of first showing the red flag, and only cars which are under their own power at the showing of the red flag will be classified.

Leader > 50% (75% for Nat. A and Int.) - result declared.

J.5.3Once the Black and White chequered flag has been displayed the event is over, and may not be restarted.

So if after 2 laps and before 50/75 % the red flag is shown and the chequered is also displayed (remember that both can only be displayed on the authority of the CoC) the race is finished and the finishing order is based on J.5.4.4.

Or at least that is how I read it.

Regards

Jim

[mini1400]

If the red is displayed and the result declared, the chequered flag is shown to the pit lane & not to the race track.. (well, that's what they did at Brands last weekend...)

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

No they didn't.

You may do things differently, but here's how it works here (for cars):

The red flag is ordered by race control, who will relay the instruction to the flaggie on the startline, usually, but not exclusively, by radio. Flag points either side of the startline will then follow suit, but no flaggie must put out a red flag until (s)he has seen it displayed at one of the points on either side. Many flaggies will not have radios, & even if they have, they are under strict instructions NOT to react to anything they may hear. Communication between race control & observers is, at most UK circuits, by phone. Race control will not phone round every post informing them of a red flag call, so in many cases people on a post will not know the red flag has been called for until they see it displayed at an adjacent post.

The only person who did wrong in John's example was the poor unfortunate who picked up the wrong flag!

In the majority of cases in Australia, all flag points have radio or landline comms (which of course can fail....so we revert to Daves watch and react plan...and operate the point using our own discretion)

When race control yells Red Flag (usually about three times in quick succession) we simultaneously display Reds at all points (which I think is the only way to do it...unambiguous and maximising the chances for every driver to see), Yellows at the incident (as appropriate) and make sure cars slow down using other means and body language

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

When race control yells Red Flag (usually about three times in quick succession) we simultaneously display Reds at all points (which I think is the only way to do it...unambiguous and maximising the chances for every driver to see),

That's the way we do it for bikes. Much better from my point of view - when you 've got a big incident to deal with, a mile or more from race control, it can be a long wait until the red flag reaches your post!

[JohnD]

All,
Read your 'Motor Sport Now!', Summer 2006, "Rule changes" article?

Spookily, the MSA proposes a brand new regulation for Racing, J5.4.6.

This will deal with a race 'interruption' while the chequered flag is being shown at the finish line. All those who see the chequered will be classifed asthey cross the line. Those who see the red, will be classified with their positions at the end of the penultimate lap. As worded, a yellow would have the same effect.

"Difficult cases make bad law"
The first time this is used, I predict a riot.

John

[carsten.meurer]

this doesn't make sense for me !

sounds like comparing appels and oranges...


if i cross the line and see a chequered, when th erace was stopped due to a red flag, i get my place as i crossed the line.
so its just to punish the cause of the red not to get a result.

how could i at the same scenario get someone his place who does not see the chequer ?

makes no sense to me...

its either one or the other !

[dtype38]

Lets say the leader has a problem on the last lap and slows dramatically. The second place man passes him and goes on to take the chequered flag, winning the race. A red flag comes out in front of the previous leader, so on count back to the previous lap he was first over the line, so also wins the race???

[JohnD]

Absolutely, dtype.

That's why there'll be unrest in the paddock!
John

[Eddy V]

And who is going to decide if you have seen the red flag or not? Even if you haven't seen it, let them try and prove it.
Sounds all a bit over the top that new rule, but stranger things have happened before.

I think the drivers will need very quick responding flagmarshals.