[Driver] Vettel vs Webber: Round 2

[chunterer]

They didn't ask him to today but Horner basically admitted that should the top 3 be running in the same order towards the closing stages in Abu Dhabi and only Webber can win it, he would expect the drivers to do the right thing for the team (or similar)

I.E. Vettel to slow to allow Webber to win to pip Alonso in the title race.

Might not be morally right but it's the right thing to do for the team. Vettel can't win it unless Alonso finishes poorly.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Might not be morally right but it's the right thing to do for the team. Vettel can't win it unless Alonso finishes poorly.

Fingers crossed that Alonso and Webber have a coming together at the first corner next sunday then

[GTRMagic]

So instead of having one driver who has a brilliant chance at the title, they now have 2 who may get there if the planets align... weird

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Fingers crossed that Alonso and Webber have a coming together at the first corner next sunday then

RBR has access to 4 cars doesnt it?

[gert]

Originally Posted by Mr V

But how can Red Bull ask Vettel to move over, during todays race, when he still has a very good chance of winning the title himself?

I think it would have given them more scenarios to play with.

* in a Weber-Vettel-Alonso scenario, Alonso is in trouble (now, and if they had swapped)
* in a Vettel-Webber-Alonso scenario, Alonso is most likely in trouble (now, and if they had swapped)
* in a Vettel-<someone>-Webber-Alonso scenario, Alonso is safe now, but would be in trouble had the Red Bulls switched
* Alonso would be in trouble in any scenario where Webber was in the top 8 and Alonso was behind him.

Despite the fact I'd like Webber to win it, I really think Red Bull as a team would have had more chances to have 1 of their drivers as the champion if the positions had been reversed.

I admit that would have hurt Vettel's chances somewhat, but not that much I think in regards to Alonso. It would have hurt his chances compared to Webber though.
Vettel has to win now, and hope that Alonso finishes no higher than 5th, or breaks. Based on current form (car & driver) I can't see Alonso finish lower than 4th unless he has a car problem.


Of course they run the team and I don't.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by gert

Despite the fact I'd like Webber to win it, I really think Red Bull as a team would have had more chances to have 1 of their drivers as the champion if the positions had been reversed.

Maybe, but what better than having your faster driver being the one playing rear gunner

[GTRMagic]

So what does next week look like in Abu Dhabi in terms of permutations...

Mr Alonso is World Drivers Champion if:
- he is 1st or 2nd
- he is 3rd or 4th AND Mr Webber is 2nd or lower
- he is 5th or 6th, AND Mr Webber is 3rd or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 2nd or lower.
- he is 7th or 8th, AND Mr Webber is 4th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 2nd or lower.
- he is 9th, AND Mr Webber is 5th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 3rd or lower.
- he is 10th, AND Mr Webber is 6th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 3rd or lower.
- he fails to score a point, but Mr Webber is 6th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 3rd or lower, AND Mr Hamilton is 2nd or lower.

OR

Mr Webber is World Drivers Champion if:
- he wins, AND Mr Alonso is 3rd or lower.
- he is 2nd, AND Mr Alonso is 6th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 3rd or lower.
- he is 3rd, AND Mr Alonso is 7th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 2nd or lower.
- he is 4th, AND Mr Alonso is 9th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 2nd or lower.
- he is 5th, AND Mr Alonso is 10th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 3rd or lower.

OR

Mr Vettel is World Drivers Champion if:
- he wins, AND Mr Alonso is 5th or lower.
- he is 2nd, AND Mr Alonso is 9th or lower, AND Mr Webber is 5th or lower.
- he is 3rd, AND Mr Alonso fails to score a point, AND Mr Webber is 6th or lower, AND Mr Hamilton is 2nd or lower.

OR

Mr Hamilton is World Drivers Champion if:
- he wins, AND Mr Alonso fails to score a point, AND Mr Webber is 6th or lower, AND Mr Vettel is 3rd or lower

Confused yet?

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Confused yet?

The only thing I am confused about is why you keep referring to them as "Mr".

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by manwell

Ummmm..... generally in racing the apex of the corner IS the proper racing line. Its not one or the other.

Not when you still have 500m before the corner... you start from the outside of the track and shortcut the corner (apex) to get max acceleration out of the corner... is the quickest way around corners I would think?

But moving on...

I can't wait to see what the last race throws up. Webber cannot afford to put himself at risk with defensive moves like we've seen from him when challenged. He has no choice but to go for it. He needs to qualify on pole and lead from the front. Otherwise, the best alternative would be to have Vettel lead and Webber a close second... and have the two swap positions... to gurantee RBR and Webber of the title.

Alonso also needs to go for it as anything less than second could see him cede his position. I wonder if his Ferrari will be able to hold its own at Abu Dhabi? If so, Massa could be a good foil.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

The only thing I am confused about is why you keep referring to them as "Mr".

I dont know them personally, so why wouldnt they be "Mr". Perhaps this is not the European way of doing things... but it is polite..

[mac]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Yes but we always hear about Webber 'complaining' about Vettel. I'm not exactly understanding why it is necessary. It's not like Vettel publicly complains about Webber...

Why should he complain about anything in the team if he always gets the last run in qualifying (which he always seems to do), if he gets the new parts first, if he has Dr Marko whispering sweet nothings in his ear...?

Why would he have any reason to complain about his team mate? Perhaps other than "I wish he wasn't quite so fast - that would make things easier for me"...

[SSbaby]

Sorry, I realised I posted to the wrong thread.

[Trev Campbell]

I know I am biased, but haven't Red Bull just gone from having the possiblity of 1 driver having a great chance of winning the WDC and one an outside chance. To now having 2 outside chances of winning ??!?!?!?

The title for Red Bull is no longer in any single drivers hands. Webber needs to win and have another person finish between him and Alonso. Vettel Needs to win and Alonso to realistically DNF (Really can anyone see Alonso finishing lower than 3-4) If they had reversed the positions in Brazil, Vettel's title chances would be almost the same as they are now, requiring an Alonso DNF. Webber would then just need to finish ahead of Alonso.

Red Bull are now reliant on a 1-2 (Something they have only managed 4 times from 18 starts this year with a dominante car)

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

I know I am biased, but haven't Red Bull just gone from having the possiblity of 1 driver having a great chance of winning the WDC and one an outside chance. To now having 2 outside chances of winning ??!?!?!?

The title for Red Bull is no longer in any single drivers hands. Webber needs to win and have another person finish between him and Alonso. Vettel Needs to win and Alonso to realistically DNF (Really can anyone see Alonso finishing lower than 3-4) If they had reversed the positions in Brazil, Vettel's title chances would be almost the same as they are now, requiring an Alonso DNF. Webber would then just need to finish ahead of Alonso.

Red Bull are now reliant on a 1-2 (Something they have only managed 4 times from 18 starts this year with a dominante car)

And all 4 contenders are short of engines, having to run on their best used powerplant. Mr Webber's Renault resembled a tea kettle last night apparently... Mr Alonso is very limited with options and apparently lost a high mileage unit on Friday...

The only bloke with a genuine shot at the win, regardless of anyone else is Mr Alonso...

Does the WDC matter much to RBR now they have their WCC?

[JABWOA]

RBR have it pretty easy really. Let Vettel and Webber run 1-2 which they should. If Alsonso is hovering in third, then Webber takes the win and title other wise leave Vettel where he is. I can't see the Ferrari being quicker than the RBR's. McLaren will just loose grip again and fade away. Only a wild card could spoil the party and Rosberg and Kubica just dont seem to have that little bit more pace and Massa will play the team game.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

RBR have it pretty easy really. Let Vettel and Webber run 1-2 which they should. If Alsonso is hovering in third, then Webber takes the win and title other wise leave Vettel where he is. I can't see the Ferrari being quicker than the RBR's. McLaren will just loose grip again and fade away. Only a wild card could spoil the party and Rosberg and Kubica just dont seem to have that little bit more pace and Massa will play the team game.

Yep and seeing as how there are no team orders and either could win the title, Webber if he is second or Vettel if he is second, has lunge down the inside and has them both off. Meanwhile Alonso tooling around down the back somewhere laughs his head off.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Fingers crossed that Alonso and Webber have a coming together at the first corner next sunday then

Good grief - I seriously hope not. The worst possible outcome, IMO. Now if Alonso and Vettel had that coming together, that'd be another story.....

[djb]

Im with you Ayse...
I do fear that the wet off DNF Webber had is going to haunt him. I wish I am wrong, but we will only see in about 7 days won't we?

[GT6]

Well I think the result has effectively handed Alonso the title, the Maclarens seem to have slowed down and vettel would rather webber did not win the title so even if webber wins in the final race vettel will probably allow alonso into second. Vettel is a good driver for sure but a team player I am not so sure about.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well I think the result has effectively handed Alonso the title, the Maclarens seem to have slowed down and vettel would rather webber did not win the title so even if webber wins in the final race vettel will probably allow alonso into second. Vettel is a good driver for sure but a team player I am not so sure about.

You have to be kidding? No driver would do such a thing as to risk their career to hand an oppositing team a championship (unless said driver was moving to that team the year after)

[Mak]

What was the reason for Webber's engine overheating? Are the team's still allowed telemetry to adjust engine setting or is it just maual adjustments by driver. Was interesting when Webber was catching Vettel, Christian and crew seemed a bit worried that they may soon be run to close together.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well I think the result has effectively handed Alonso the title, the Maclarens seem to have slowed down and vettel would rather webber did not win the title so even if webber wins in the final race vettel will probably allow alonso into second. Vettel is a good driver for sure but a team player I am not so sure about.

Probably!

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

You have to be kidding? No driver would do such a thing as to risk their career to hand an oppositing team a championship (unless said driver was moving to that team the year after)

Well as Red Bull have failed to disipline or even place blame on Vettel for any incident that has happened this year. I think they'd let him get away with with a hug and a 'there there Seb, poor you' !!!!!!

[deeks6]

Some seriously silly stuff going on in Webbel/Vetter land ... either driver will ultimately do what is best for the team. There is so much rubbish that goes on when 2 teammates have a close competition (mostly media driven) and any small comment by the drivers becomes "war".

Good on RBR for their policy of equal support (despite a couple of apparent Vettel favouritisms early) its the way it should be. However, Ferrari should have been disqualified for their blatant switching of Massa and Alonso earlier (if the rules were properly administered). We all know that they are not ever! However, if they are running in the order that they were in Brazil, there is no doubt in my mind that the positions will be switched so that one RBR driver takes the title ... an absolute no-brainer.
If I was Vettel, I would also like to ensure that I still had a chance at the title. If the Ferrari engine goes or Teflonso is back in the pack he can win it so the decision will go to the wire if the situation demands it. If his engine survives Korea, he would now have one hand on the cup. On the other hand if Webber didnt bin it at Korea, he would have one hand on the cup. If Ferrari didnt switch Massa, Alonso would have to actually beat both Webber and Vettel.
You can say RBRs strategy is risky and may give Alonso the title but so be it ... they are gambling on being 1-2 and having some cards to play if they need to. I'd like to see team orders in any form heavily penalised but its never going to be the case.

[chunterer]

Let's hope Seb doesn't get his own back on Mark by 'extinguishing' his title dream next weekend.....




I'll get me coat...