[Driver] The GOAT - Semi Final - Hamilton vs Prost

[crmalcolm]

The first Semi Final sees Hamilton take on Prost.

Hamilton was victorious in the Quarter Final 16-5, whilst Prost took a 12-9 victory.

So which of these two drivers do you feel was the greater?

A (Lewis-Hamilton focused) website described this comparison as:

Despite them having different personalities and strengths and weaknesses as drivers; they share a lot of similarities:

- Both have faced strong teammates throughout their career.

- Both competed in a very competitive era overall

- Both have 4 WDC's (at the moment)

- Both are clean drivers, barring a few isolated incidents.

- Both have won a WDC without the team winning the constructors. It's fair to say that both won a title without the best car as well. Prost in 86, and Lewis in 2008.

- Both have shared the same era with a driver that receives slightly more critical acclaim than them from experts and their peers. Prost with Senna (check the 1993 driver's poll, the Autosport poll from 2009, F1 Racing Magazine's panel of experts, and Henry, Jenks, Dodgins, BBC, and Hughes's all-time rankings), and Lewis with Alonso (check the journos poll last year, and the 2010 driver's poll)

- Both are easily in the top 10 drivers of all-time, but are only cited as the outright greatest by their most ardent fans.

Now, here comes the tricky part. Which one is actually better? Despite competing in different eras, it is fine to weigh up their pros and cons, and come to a conclusion on who left more of an impression on you.

The obvious areas to get out of the way with is that Lewis is a better qualifier and better in the wet. There's not much more to be said about how the two drivers compare in those departments. Prost is an underrated qualifier, but I would say Lewis is slightly more impressive over 1 lap. In the wet, it's a whitewash. It's not that Prost couldn't drive in the wet, it's more that he had a mental block about it, and was also made to looks worse by Senna's genius in the wet. However, whatever the reasons for Prost's record in the wet, it doesn't excuse Lewis's superiority over him in this area.

I consider Prost's "lows" to be less damaging than Lewis's lows. Being outgunned by Senna in equal equipment is nothing to be ashamed about. Being outperformed by Jenson Button (2011), and Rosberg (2nd halves of 2013 and 2015) isn't either, but it's not really the same. Prost's 1993 campaign does not count against his reputation, as he coasted in the 2nd half of the year, which made his performances look worse than they actually were. For example, at Spa 1993, he had the race in the bag until his pit crew messed up. Instead of fighting Hill and Schumacher, he allowed them go on ahead, and settled for a podium. He told BBC all weekend that he was not arsed about race wins; so his behaviour on-track was consistent with his words off-track. He did make some silly errors in 1993 (Hungary, Monaco, etc), and was shown up by Senna on occasion, but the latter can be forgiven, because it was Senna.

In terms of WDC's, I would also give Prost the nod. Prost's 1986 campaign is a textbook example of point hoovering. His 1985 campaign was also mightily impressive. Fair is fair, 1989 was a gift due to Senna's mid-season run of poor reliability, and 1993 wasn't exactly anything to shout about either. Lewis's 2017 and 2014 campaigns are his best; but neither quite match what Prost did in 1986; against a Williams Renault that was easily better. Lewis had too many shaky moments in 2008 and 2015 for those campaigns to be considered on par with Prost's 1985 either.

In terms of best performances, I give the edge to Lewis. Lewis's drives at Hungary 2009, Hungary 2013, Monaco 2016, and Singapore 2017 were jaw-dropping, and some of his qualifying laps in 2012 and 2017 were inch-perfect. He has often had mechanics shaking their heads at what he achieves. A lot of Prost's best drives went under the radar. Mexico 1990 is the most famous, and for mostly good reason. He was helped by Dennis meddling with his driver's tyre pressures, which sealed their fate. However, you can't argue with Prost winning from 14th, when his teammate Nigel Mansell started 4th. He made Senna look very average at Spain 1988, as he nailed the set-up and had everything under control in difficult conditions. Mansell described it as "following the master". He also had a masterful recovery at Spa 1986. He was last after the first lap, and his car was damaged to the point where it was like a "banana"; yet he somehow set the lap record and managed to finish 6th. John Barnard considered it the best drive he has ever seen. Roebuck also really rates another recovery drive he had at Japan 1987. Overall though, I think Lewis has beggared belief more than Prost throughout their respective careers.

As for their respective eras. I think Prost's technical nous deserves consideration. Today, drivers provide feedback, and their engineer makes adjustments. In Prost's day, the driver played a bigger role in setting up the car. This was an area that Prost excelled in, and was the best in his era at doing so. Driver feedback was also invaluable back in the 80's. Again, Prost had an excellent reputation in this area.
Bernard Dudot, the man behind Renault Sport's hyper-successful V10 engine, says of Prost and Senna: "I have never worked with drivers who have such a depth of ability to assimilate and recall precisely what their cars - and engines - are doing at any point of any lap, on any circuit. Without question they are the best there have been in my experience."
Benson and Treymayne parroted the latter comment. In an era without advanced telemetry, Senna and Prost were the next best thing.

I have read on this forum that today's advanced data sharing and telemetry flatters Lewis's teammate. I don't agree with that. If we are to bring up the 2014 "dossier", then the 2007 season has to be accounted for where Lewis having access to Alonso's data enabled him to get on the pace right away. You can't have one without the other. If you feel that Nico was flattered in 2014 by the data sharing - and would have been in the wilderness otherwise - then you have to take away Lewis's rookie year triumph over Alonso, which is a key part of Lewis's resume. Without that rookie season, Lewis's career might have taken longer to really get going. Lewis has benefited from Nico's data on occasion as well; just not to the same extent as the 2014 "dossier".

Prost did have an advantage in his day that gets forgotten. From Mark Hughes:
In 1990 at Ferrari Prost weighed 58kg, Mansell 80kg. That accounts for 0.6s per lap...
Could it be that Prost's pace was flattered somewhat by the rules, which entailed the car and driver being weighed independent of one another? Perhaps, at the least it is something to consider. Few would deny that Lewis would be quick in any era - provided he could get the car set-up to his liking. His talent speaks for itself.

[chillibowl]

what happens when 2 high ranking seeds meet each other before the finals?

went for LH with 95 wins over Prost's 51 wins...the difference being 44 which also happens to be LH number.

the numbers have spoken!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Prost did have an advantage in his day that gets forgotten. From Mark Hughes:
In 1990 at Ferrari Prost weighed 58kg, Mansell 80kg. That accounts for 0.6s per lap...
Could it be that Prost's pace was flattered somewhat by the rules, which entailed the car and driver being weighed independent of one another? Perhaps, at the least it is something to consider. Few would deny that Lewis would be quick in any era - provided he could get the car set-up to his liking. His talent speaks for itself.
[/I]

well thats a whole new metric to factor into the discussion...now need a new poll for who is the pound for pound GOAT of all time!

[FIRE]

Hamilton

[S griffin]

Again, it’s hard to look past Prost. Rarely made a mistake, knew when to push hard, knew when to back off. Drove for four different and won races for all four of them.

Hamilton has gone against strong team mates and matched or beaten all of them. Champions in Alonso, Button and Rosberg, plus race winners in Kovalainen and Bottas. But then you look at Prost’s team mates, it’s even more impressive. Champions in Lauda, Rosberg, Senna, Mansell and Hill, plus race winners in Watson, Arnoux and Alesi. Only Cheever and Johansson weren’t race winners, although they had the ability too

OTOH, Hamilton has won races in every season he has competed. Prost didn’t win in a couple of seasons, although his first season he didn’t have the car to.

But Prost, because he made the most of what he had with the minimum of effort and that deserves a lot of credit

[Aysedasi]

Tough one, but for me it has to be Hamilton.

[BTCC frog]

It has to be Hamilton.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

what happens when 2 high ranking seeds meet each other before the finals?

Once the bracket is complete, I'll reveal the full seeding and the question of 2 high-ranking seeds meeting can be seen in context.

[Adam43]

We really are getting to end game. Mammoths of F1.

[Gerard C]

Hamilton with no doubt.

[Adam43]

Head or heart?

The head can’t decide between Prost or Hamilton. The heart can’t decide between Hamilton or Prost.

Argh.

[Gerard C]

Two votes for "Le manipulateur" and twelve for the great champion, no reason to be tortured. Vox populi… But sometimes a little bit of self brain torture can be fun too.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

well thats a whole new metric to factor into the discussion...now need a new poll for who is the pound for pound GOAT of all time!

I guess it was good fortune then that pitted 'lightweight' Prost against 'Pie Boy Mansell'.......... 80kgs for Mansell? I'd take that in a heartbeat!

[Racing Harz]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

It has to be Hamilton.

Yes!

[Adam43]

I think Hamilton in the end, but I’m pleased it’s not completely one-sided.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I guess it was good fortune then that pitted 'lightweight' Prost against 'Pie Boy Mansell'.......... 80kgs for Mansell? I'd take that in a heartbeat!

Where as i would only take the pie!

[Aysedasi]

That's the trouble Chilli, I take far too many pies......!

[S griffin]

Prost could have had just as many championships as Hamilton if circumstances had been a little different. In his 12 seasons in F1, only 3 seasons was Prost not in contention for the title (80, 87 and 91). But it’s the same number for Hamilton (09, 11, 13)

[Aysedasi]

The phrase 'if circumstances had been a little different' applies to any number of drivers, some who have been in contention, some not. Moss, Villeneuve, Bellof and Senna too. Who knows what these and more could have achieved had their racing careers not been cut short.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

That's the trouble Chilli, I take far too many pies......!

me as well my friend!

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The phrase 'if circumstances had been a little different' applies to any number of drivers, some who have been in contention, some not. Moss, Villeneuve, Bellof and Senna too. Who knows what these and more could have achieved had their racing careers not been cut short.

Very true. But I just was trying to point out how often in contention Prost was and that I can’t think of a title he threw away. 82 it was Renault unreliability, 83 lack of development and suspicions over the Brabham’s fuel, 84 Monaco being stopped early, which Prost wanted, but that wasn’t a mistake per se. 88 the dropped scores system and we all know what happened in 90. It’s all academic I know, but it shows how you can never accuse Prost of throwing away titles with unforced errors, like say Vettel arguably has

[crmalcolm]

Interesting to see Vettel and Prost comparisons.
An article here reviews how much similarity there is between their two careers.

One of the big stories of the 2020 Formula 1 season was a four-times world champion on his way out of Ferrari after a difficult year.

If the story of Sebastian Vettel’s troubling Ferrari swansong sounds familiar, it is because it’s happened before – sort of – with Alain Prost famously being sacked by Ferrari before the end of the 1991 season.

[Adam43]

Vettel refrained from comparing the car to a truck though and made it to the final race

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Vettel refrained from comparing the car to a truck though and made it to the final race

I wonder if Prost would have got away with it if he'd referred to it as a 'breadvan'........

[Adam43]

Lovely

It wasn’t really comparable to that beauty.