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Old 2 Mar 2006, 10:42 (Ref:1534556)   #1
Al Weyman
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Double Headers, who needs them.

Just got the SR's through and one thing that gauls me is several of the meetings are 'Double Headers'. Well I only want to do one race in an afternoon thanks and if it is over a weekend I may only want to race on the one day but it appears there is no facility for this option (please correct me if I am wrong on this). Take the opener at Silverstone, I was going to put a car out in Classic Thunder but looking at the entry form it seems I am obligated to do both races (two on the same day) with just one practice session so I am going to pass on this one and as there is a race the following weekend for my Post Historic car I will not enter that either so I will now give the meeting a miss as I like a weekends grace between meetings to put anything right that may have gone wrong as we are not all pro racers. Does not really help the low grid situation does it?
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 11:12 (Ref:1534572)   #2
Ian Sowman
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Ian Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
On the contrary, Al. I find that many racers prefer to do double-headers because they generally work out much better value, especially if it is a circuit a long distance away that involves an overnight stop. Many of the costs of a racing weekend are fixed, so if you get more racing for that fixed cost surely that is a good thing. You probably do less meetings as a result, but this does help to concentrate grids.

Certainly in FF1600, double-headers are generally more popular than single races. Yes, there is the issue that if it all goes wrong in qualifying or the first race then you have spent more money for no return, but that is a pure gamble. Whethere a driver takes that or not depends on how risk averse they are.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 11:49 (Ref:1534597)   #3
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Over a weekend may be one thing but even then I don't like them but two on a day is just too much IMHO. Also I don't think the deal is that brilliant.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 12:53 (Ref:1534641)   #4
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I like double headers, If I am going to drag myself up North I would like to make the trip worth while, it also helps on the wallet if the double headers are on the same day as there is no need to purchase hotel rooms/breakfast/diner etc. and a double header saves me on pertol etc getting to and from the event.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 14:30 (Ref:1534701)   #5
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Yes but you only get what 10 meetings in a season would you not prefer to stretch them out over the year and make an occassion of each meeting otherwise whats the sense in it all. Take it a stage further lets have 4 races a weekend then we only need to travel two or three times a year look at the money we would save. Now that would be stupid of course but it makes my point, this is not about saving money just that I want to enjoy a nice stretch of meets over the year not have two in one weekend and several times over the season.

This double header thing is a recent phenomina I believe and was not around when I last raced 8 or 9 years ago and I don't like it.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 14:33 (Ref:1534704)   #6
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JohnMiller should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJohnMiller should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You can't please all the people of course, but I think a one day double-header is great, and a one day single-header is OK and a two day double-header is a nightmare.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 14:37 (Ref:1534707)   #7
Al Weyman
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A one day double header or any double header would be fine IF you you had the option to opt out and just do one round if you wanted to and pick what day of the weekend you wanted to race, it is not convient for me to race over a whole weekend as I have a shop business to run and this is my point as well.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 14:43 (Ref:1534709)   #8
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Take it a stage further lets have 4 races a weekend then we only need to travel two or three times a year look at the money we would save
Sounds good to me.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 15:14 (Ref:1534721)   #9
Ian Sowman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Weyman
A one day double header or any double header would be fine IF you you had the option to opt out and just do one round if you wanted to and pick what day of the weekend you wanted to race, it is not convient for me to race over a whole weekend as I have a shop business to run and this is my point as well.
Have you made that feedback to organising clubs? If they don't know that some people only want to do one part of a double-header, at 70% of the entry fee (say), then they're not going to provide that option.

I do agree with your point that it is a recent phenomenon (I guess it largely stems back to the Racing Ahead format), rather like 20-minute races.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 15:36 (Ref:1534735)   #10
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Al, this has been a complaint of mine for the last couple of years but in a couple of clubs I belong to, straw polls have been taken and this is what the majority prefer.
I am not totally against double headers but what annoys me is when you practice and race on Saturday and then have to sit around until maybe the last race on a Sunday for the second race. This is all well and good for the Saturday night **** artists, some of whom don't work or own their own companies and can afford time off. I have to be up for work at 4am on a Monday morning and taking into account Sunday evening traffic, I may not be home until midnight but as John Miller said, you can't please all the people.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 16:11 (Ref:1534747)   #11
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graham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridgraham bahr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
my preference and that of most of my close racing friend is in favour of double headers, its much easier and cheaper to tackle a championship spread over 10 double header rounds than single headers over 20
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 20:47 (Ref:1534906)   #12
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Double headers over two days are generally a good thing as my weekend is effectively lost even if I race just one day anyway.

Double headers on one day are not so good as if something goes wrong in the first race I may not have time to fix it for the second.

But as Al said, I can plan my work around the weekend and I have a motorhome to sleep in.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 20:50 (Ref:1534911)   #13
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But Grahame the majority of championships only have 10 or 12 rounds, your TRC is unique in the two race format and I am not critisisng that in the least as it seems you pay less than for a single round anyhow, it is when you are obliged to shell out what nearly £300 for two races on one day and one practise and Ian why should I have to pay 70% of that which is £210 and £40 over the normal £170 just to do one round I would rather leave the car at home or do track day, it does not make sense to me.

And Penelope I have to ask is racing a chore for you? What I mean is all that getting up early once a fortnight or three weeks so much bother that you would rather wrap it all up in two or three hits, I really do not understand that. I suppose the fact of the matter is I am trapped in the past a bit when racing was fun and you got together after the race and shared a yarn and had an award ceromony. These days it is who can get their car on the trailer first and get on their way home, life on Mars I guess compared with to day.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 20:56 (Ref:1534916)   #14
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Al, you could just do the same as me when the double headers are inconvenient/too expensive, which is stay at home.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 21:01 (Ref:1534918)   #15
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Exactly and unfortunately I will do but then I see on here all the marshalls and everyone complaining about thin grids and dull cars where as I have two interesting cars that will for some meets stay at home which is silly.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 21:27 (Ref:1534939)   #16
Ian Sowman
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Ian Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
70% is roughly two-thirds. Given that if you do the qualification and one race, rather than qualification and two races, i.e. had two-thirds of the track time, it would seem sensible that you pay two-thirds of the double-header entry fee.

Is that not utterly logical?
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 21:39 (Ref:1534946)   #17
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No its not logical at all how can it be when a single race is £170 which I would be prepared to pay, don't get where you are going there. Anyhow some double headers have two practises.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 22:48 (Ref:1534997)   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Bassom
Double headers over two days are generally a good thing as my weekend is effectively lost even if I race just one day anyway.

Double headers on one day are not so good as if something goes wrong in the first race I may not have time to fix it for the second.

But as Al said, I can plan my work around the weekend and I have a motorhome to sleep in.
Just as well you are OK with them Dennis as I just had a look at your calender, 8 meetings for a 12 round championship, no Brands, no Donnington and no Thruxton what on earth has happened. This is the other thing I don't like with this double header lark, you don't get spread of different tracks in the course of a season, I am most surprised they get so many favourable comments here as I think the format is the pits.
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Old 2 Mar 2006, 23:02 (Ref:1535009)   #19
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No its not logical at all how can it be when a single race is £170 which I would be prepared to pay, don't get where you are going there. Anyhow some double headers have two practises.
So, if an organising club were to introduce the option of entering only one part of a double-header, you don't think that the logical pricing structure - ignoring any specific numerical examples you may wish to quote - would be to pro-rate the fee according to the track time? I'm not sure how the MSA fee works actually - if you pay twice for a double-header or just once. If the latter, you would expect your fee to be slightly higher than the pro-rated amount.
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Old 3 Mar 2006, 05:46 (Ref:1535133)   #20
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The MSA fee is payable once, no matter how many races you compete in.
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Old 3 Mar 2006, 07:31 (Ref:1535167)   #21
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Ian if the fee for a single round is £170 how can doing one double header at your 70% breakdown (?) work out at £40 more sorry I just don't get it. Yes I would be prepared to pay the £170 which would be fair but not 70% of the double header rate, the car will stay in the garage.
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Old 3 Mar 2006, 08:20 (Ref:1535192)   #22
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Ian Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Al, I specifically said don't look at specific numerical examples! I've actually done a little research and the real single header:double header entry fee ratio is closer to 0.6:1 than 0.7 using a few examples, which probably brings you closer to your number.

However, you haven't answered the question - wouldn't the intuitive and logical way of setting the entry fee be in reasonable proportion to track time?
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Old 3 Mar 2006, 08:28 (Ref:1535196)   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Weyman

This double header thing is a recent phenomina I believe and was not around when I last raced 8 or 9 years ago and I don't like it.
Correct Al, it is a new thing. Not sure I like it either. However, if the races formed an aggregate result that is a different matter,like one long race with a split. Ian says FFs have double headers. They always used to, but the two races were heats and if lucky you got into the final. Some places had 3 heats.
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Old 3 Mar 2006, 08:50 (Ref:1535208)   #24
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PenelopePitstop should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Al:-
I have only on one occasion managed to compete in a whole championship year, last year I had what for me was a good year and got in 9 races over 5 weekends. I just don't have the time or money to do any more. So craming more races into a weekend means I get to fetel the car to the track and develop it to make it go faster over more sessions and I would actually compete in a championship instead of picking and chosing the races I wish to compete in from various clubs.
Also what is "TRC" you make its 2 race format sound like the kind of value for money racing I am always trying to seek out.
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Old 3 Mar 2006, 09:26 (Ref:1535240)   #25
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Ian Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Its the Track and Race Car Saloon series organised by BARC SE that is discussed on these pages almost ad infinitum
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